Dallas Stars Daily Links: Should The Stars Trade Steve Ott and Nicklas Grossman?
by Erin Bolen on Feb 9, 2012 6:01 AM CST
in Dallas Stars Daily Links
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PrintBefore I start your daily trade rumor session, I want to just express my views on one thing.
For me, discussing who might be traded or who might be coming here is all fairly meaningless until you put those things together in a workable package. Saying "trade Brenden Morrow" or "trade Stephane Robidas" or "trade for Jeff Carter" doesn't really mean anything until you say what for so you can work out if the return is worth it.
And that's where I think this column by Richard Durrett falls a little bit short. In it, he does a really good job of making his case why he believes the Stars should be willing to move some veteran assets - namely Steve Ott and Nicklas Grossman.
But he doesn't say what they should move them for, and to me that's just as important. If you want to use the pieces you get in return to build around 26-year-old Loui Eriksson, 28-year-old Trevor Daley and 28-year-old Kari Lehtonen, all players he mentions as pieces of his core, then it doesn't make any sense to trade for draft picks that won't be in the NHL until they're 30, at least to me. But if the idea is to flip a 34-year-old for a 22-year-old who might be in an overstocked position on his own team, then that's more reasonable.
So without the anticipated return, the slew of "The Stars Should Trade This Dude" stories that are and will be out there ring a little false to me.
To Durrett's credit, though, the case he lays out for why the Stars should make a trade and the quotes he got from Joe Nieuwendyk are solid, and it's definitely worth a read. Here's some examples of the quotes.
"It's dangerous to work that way," Nieuwendyk said this week. "You can't just say, 'OK, you've got a bag of money. Go buy some players.' History shows that doesn't equate to success."
....
"We all want to make the playoffs and would like to think this team has the character to make a push for the playoffs," Nieuwendyk said, "but I also have a responsibility to have discussions with teams, and I think you have to keep an eye on the future."
After the jump, more on today's game against the Columbus Blue Jackets, even more trade mongering and catching up with the little kid snowed by Alex Ovechkin in the playoffs a few years ago.
- With a very busy stretch and lots of travel in the near future, the Stars didn't practice on Wednesday. But coach Glen Gulutzan said changing lines would be "shuffling cards" while the real problem is effort and not necessarily combinations. [DallasNews.com]
- Jamie Benn appeared on ESPN 103.3 on Wednesday. If you can get through the cringe-worthy theme song at the beginning, there's a pretty decent interview behind it. Also, and this is just a curiosity of mine, why can Canadians who live in America pronounce Modano correctly while Canadians who live in Canada can't? Inquiring minds want to know. [ESPN Dallas]
- Sheldon Souray hasn't been a huge contributor lately, but he's still light years ahead of where he was at this point last year. [The Globe and Mail]
- The Stars are apparently up for a Dallas Business Journal award. The article says the award "recognizes the top deals and honors top dealmakers" in DFW, so I assume it's about the sale. [Dallas Business Journal]
- As a friendly reminder, the Stars have the Hockey and Heels promotion coming up on Feb. 23. If I didn't live in the silly little Ozarks, I would absolutely be there. [Defending Big D]
- If you ever wondered why there seems to be way too much passing on every team's 5-on-3 power play, this article does a pretty good job of laying out the basic defensive strategy and then shows why passing creates holes in that triangle. [Backhand Shelf]
- Sidney Crosby is still not symptom free, so I hate subjecting you to news that's still not really news, but this article does a really good job of laying out how this soft-tissue neck injury mimics concussion symptoms. Again, we still don't know he doesn't have a concussion on top of a neck injury, but it's still interesting reading. [ESPN]
- If there's a bright side to the whole Zdeno Chara-Max Pacioretty saga from last year, other than the much safer rounded stanchions, it's that Pacioretty has done a lot of good for the hospital that treated him in the aftermath of his broken neck. [Montreal Gazette]
- Meet the enemy, part the first: The Blue Jackets did the Stars a big favor by beating the Minnesota Wild on Tuesday, and here's how our friends over at The Cannon saw it. [The Cannon]
- Meet the enemy, part the second: Vinny Prospal signed a 1-year, $2.5 million contract extension on Wednesday, but the most interesting part was the reporting that there was a handshake agreement that Prospal will get a job with the organization when he chooses to retire. So, um, does that violate the CBA? [Puck Daddy]
- Around the Pacific Division, the games: Dear San Jose Sharks. You suck for losing 4-3 to the Calgary Flames. No love, Stars fans. Also, Corey Perry got away with being Corey Perry and then scored the game-winner in the Anaheim Ducks 3-2- overtime win over the Carolina Hurricanes. [San Jose Mercury News/Puck Daddy]
- Around the Pacific Division, the trade mongering: Brenden Morrow isn't the only captain in the division who is the subject of trade rumors. Shane Doan of the Phoenix Coyotes knows the ground he and his team stands on is rather shaky at the moment. [Canadian Press]
- The Montreal Gazette was on a roll with fun stories on Wednesday. In this one, they catch up with the little kid in the Montreal Canadiens uniform who was snowed by Alexander Ovechkin a couple years back after he got to meet the Russian superstar. Also, I think it's hysterical that many adult fans got all worked up about the "danger" and "disrespect" while the kid himself thought it was cool to be on YouTube. [Montreal Gazette]
- There may not have been any practice, but Glen Gulutzan did speak to the media for a little bit on Wednesday. When he mentions "guys not feeling well," it makes me think that horrid DeathFlu is still working its way through. Shouldn't that have a shelf life of less than a month?
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Tonight's game is going to go a long way toward determining what happens to the guys on this team.
I can’t imagine that ANYONE outside of Benn, Loui, Kari and Goose (per the extension) will be safe from a trade if they come out flat again tonight.
If I’m Nieuwendyk, that’s my attitude. If you’re not willing to give it your all tonight, after the way the past few games have been and all that has been said, there is no more room for you on this squad. That is what I would tell them.
I love Ott, and I would absolutely hate to see him go, but he has to show up tonight. WIthout Morrow (and a lot of the times even with Morrow), he’s the emotional leader/catalyst for the team. If they’re going to emotionally rally around anyone, it’ll be him. Unless you’re counting Gully’s newfound fire, no one else has the gusto.
I've never really thought they would consider trading Ott,
But on the bright side the team’s minor penalties taken would drop dramatically, although penalties drawn would drop as well. Grossman definitely needs to go, but Ott should stay as long as he’s not playing on 1 of the top 2 lines.
"The Dallas Cowboys announced they have released Jerry Jones."
Trading Ott...
..I personally think he is untradable. Not a lot of teams would like to add a player who isn’t liked by his peers and ranked high in a survey of dirtiest players. After the Avery-Dallas saga, teams might be more cautious about a potential locker room rift, therefore he may not find a new home or the return for a player of his reputation may be very low, hence not worth dealing him.
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 8:19 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
This one game shouldn't overshadow a full season of work.
Defending Big D Check it out
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"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011
It wouldn't be just this one game. If we only had one game's worth of this issue, it wouldn't be an issue.
The problem is that it’s 3 out of every 4 games that this is an issue. This game would be the straw that breaks the camel’s back for me. It’s apparent that they are fully aware that they are not giving it their all. If after acknowledging that, they still do the exact same lackadaiscal nonsense, they should be held accountable by more than just the coach saying something about it to the media.
by Travis Drybread on Feb 9, 2012 9:20 AM CST up reply actions
Sure, but I'm saying that winning this game doesn't change the issues.
If they want to go in one particular direction a one game sample shouldn’t make a difference.
Defending Big D Check it out
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"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011
I'm not saying winning. I'm saying putting forth effort.
If they come out with no energy just like they have the last few games, something has to be done.
In Joe’s position, he’s already got to be leaning toward doing something and a repeat performance of the Coyotes debacle would be enough (for me) to fully commit to the direction I’m leaning.
by Travis Drybread on Feb 9, 2012 9:25 AM CST up reply actions
It doesn't change how poorly they've played though.
I think I’d be at the point where my mind would already be made up.
Defending Big D Check it out
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"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011
That's basically what I'm getting at.
If he’s not there already, one more flat performance, and no one (outside of the afrorementioned few) is safe from a trade, demotion, whatever Joe/Gully have to do to make their point.
by Travis Drybread on Feb 9, 2012 9:31 AM CST up reply actions
Good luck with that
It would be nice to see though
Defending Big D Check it out
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"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011
Agree
Does one more game good/bad change anything. As you have stated before, this is a 9th place team at best. Why stand pat with mediocrity.
Its supranatural, you know, a higher level than supernatural
by Bayouboy99 on Feb 9, 2012 9:47 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Ott is part of the solution, not the problem.
His value is intangible and it’s highly unlikely that we’d get true value back for him. Also, he has a no trade clause.
Would hate the idea of trade of Ott.
But right now only thing I can hope are wins. Not that easy task.
Trevor Daley is my cup of tea.
Deadline prediction of the week:
Grossman and Burish will be Blackhawks.
Some one from the Blackhawks deep group of prospect forwards not named Jeremy Morin (Mark McNeill, Marcus Kruger, Brandon Pirri, Brandon Saad) will be the return.
Defending Big D Check it out
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"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011
Rumors of the Blackhawks looking at Burish from several places.
They’ve also been looking for a defender.
Putting pieces together.
Defending Big D Check it out
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"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011
Yep...
…been doing the rounds for the past day it two.
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 8:24 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
I agree
The Blackhawks were reported to be looking at Sutton for a d-man, but that is very much up in the air. I can see Burish and Grossman going as a package. Hopefully combining those two would give Dallas a better quality return, as in one really good player instead of them being traded separately for two average players.
I guess they miss Burish.
But he’s a “glue” guy and we needs guys like that right?
"The Dallas Cowboys announced they have released Jerry Jones."
Any of those would be
outstanding.
by StarzenheimerSchmidt on Feb 9, 2012 9:36 AM CST up reply actions
Mark McNeill
He was a guy I really liked for the draft last year. Center, and he’s putting up some good numbers again this year.
Defending Big D- Dallas Stars news & analysis
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by Brandon Worley on Feb 9, 2012 9:50 AM CST up reply actions
McNeill...
…for Burish (if that’s what you meant). Seems unlikely.
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 9:53 AM CST up reply actions
I'm sure it would be a combination of Burish and Grossman.
Defending Big D- Dallas Stars news & analysis
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by Brandon Worley on Feb 9, 2012 9:53 AM CST up reply actions
Grossman and Burish
You aren’t getting much of value for Burish
Defending Big D Check it out
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"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011
God....the Stars are only 6 points out of the #3 pick in the draft
#parity
Defending Big D Check it out
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"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011
Really?
I though we were doing better then that.
"The Dallas Cowboys announced they have released Jerry Jones."
Carolina is last in the East.
They have 50 points. Dallas is sitting at 56.
http://stars.nhl.com/club/standings.htm?season=20112012&type=CON
Only Edmonton and Columbus have less than 50.
Defending Big D Check it out
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"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011
So....
Grigorenko, Murray, or Forsberg?
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 8:30 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
Grigo/Yakupov are likely going 1/2 unless the Oilers draft for need and take a defender.
I’d go with one of the defenders or Galchenyuk depending on his health come June.
Defending Big D Check it out
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"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011
Ok, that was before Nieuwendyk. I guess, I meant Nieuwendyk doesn't like Russians.
That is one of the reasons Vishnevskiy was traded so quickly.
"I meant Nieuwendyk doesn't like Russians."
a. Define “doesn’t like.”
b. Not sure if I buy that, regardless of the definition.
c. What makes you think he “doesn’t like” Russians?
d. It’d be very foolish of Nieuwendyk to have such prejudices,
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 11:54 AM CST up reply actions
Dude, are you Russian by any chance?
Russia have a very competitive league of its own, which by the way, pays comparable to NHL, and way better than AHL. Very often Russian prospects just leave US to play there, and teams in the NHL have no control over it. It makes it very risky to draft Russian players.
Do I have to be Russian to question your statement? Ridiculous...
FTR….you gave me what is a commonly believed notion amongst many in the NHL. If that were the norm, Malkin, Fedorov, Datsyuk, Ovechkin, Zubov, etc. etc. would have never been drafted.
I asked you how you explain that our GM (and he alone) doesn’t like Russians
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 12:07 PM CST up reply actions
First of all, me asking about whether you were Russian or not, was a joke.
Everyone is so uptight here it is getting old fast. Second, read up on some facts before arguing. KHL was founded in 2008, way after Malkin, Fedorov, Datsyuk, Ovechkin, Zubov were drafted. Atm, it is considered the strongest league in Europe, where about 40% of NHL players come from. Thus, the perception of “prestige” playing for NHL is fading among young players, as many of them prefer playing among their countrymen for more $$ now, vs just few years ago…
Finally, the fact that YOU ASKED, doesn’t mean I will answer. I voiced my opinion, and simple fact that you don’t agree with it doesn’t mean I will try to prove anything to you.
"Second, read up on some facts before arguing."
Oh how smart of you to say that, because you never mentioned the words KHL in your argument. Read your post again. The Russian Superleague existed prior and folded the year KHL was formed- the latter absorbed the teams from RSL. I may have gone a bit beyond with Zubov and Fedorov, but 78 players played in Russia during the lockout. How did that happen, eh?
Who needs to read on facts?
“Finally, the fact that YOU ASKED, doesn’t mean I will answer. I voiced my opinion, and simple fact that you don’t agree with it doesn’t mean I will try to prove anything to you.”
Don’t answer if you don’t feel like it, just don’t call it an opinion. You posted a “fact” about our GM. “Nieuwendyk doesn’t like Russians” is not an opinion. Facts need justification.
Cheers, mate!
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 12:37 PM CST up reply actions
"Russia have a very competitive league of its own" - which means KHL, that's the only one they have.
But…whatever.
That is the only one that excists...
but you did forget about RSL, so there. At least acknowledge when you have been corrected. No offense meant.
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 12:41 PM CST up reply actions
None taken. RSL was a Russia-only league, while KHL is similar to NHL, with teams from
Belarus, Latvia, Kazakhstan and Slovakia. Thus, the appeal is way more right now.
KHL is a multi-national league...
…and I agree there is an appeal, but why should a Swedish, Czech, or Norwegian prospect (also) not be lured by tax-free dollars? Maybe not now, but in the future? How about Canadian-born players?
This is a revealing article: http://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympics/story/2011/02/05/spf-asian-games-khl.html
My point was that Russian-born players have received some kind of negative publicity (steroids, mafia, commitment, etc. etc.) more so compared to other players from Europe. And that is unfair to many of the great players…that’s all.
IMO, Nieuwendyk would be crazy to pass over any of the 3 Russians (Grigorenko, Nail, or Galchenyuk) in the top 10 based on some notion like that. Do your due diligence regarding commitment, skills, etc. etc. and pick the BPA, and that’s all he should do
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 1:59 PM CST up reply actions
The KHL is the second best league in the world.
15% worse than the NHL, give or take.
Defending Big D Check it out
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"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011
Maybe this should alleviate concerns...
http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.php/spector/comments/khl_still_no_serious_threat_to_nhl/
Dated 02/08/2012…very recent.
Excerpt:
"Fears of NHL fans that Russian superstars like Washington’s Alexander Ovechkin, Pittsburgh’s Evgeni Malkin, Detroit’s Pavel Datsyuk and New Jersey’s Ilya Kovalchuk would return to their native country proved unfounded. They spurned expensive, short-term offers from KHL teams in favor of guaranteed long-term deals, job security and the higher level of skilled competition provided by the NHL.
The KHL has instead turned into a league of last resort for veterans with fading skills to continue their professional careers when their NHL days are over. "
Can’t say I disagree with the last part…at least for now. Radulov was the only non-veteran/regressing player to leave in the midst of a contract and never return (if I’m wrong here, please feel free to correct me). Hudler did leave as an RFA, but did return.
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 3:05 PM CST up reply actions
No doubt...I have few concerns about it.
Defending Big D Check it out
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"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011
I'd think that decent pre-draft interviews should take care of that risk.
Also, I heard that kind of thinking turned the Stars off Kulikov in ’09. He seems to have worked out ok. Also, what about Russians who have spent their teenage years playing in Canada?
I agree
I was just bringing it up as a point that you can’t throw all Russian-born players in the same basket. Radulov did play junior hockey in Canada, however. Bob Mackenzie kinda broke down the “Russian factor” in his draft rankings here.
Would you want to go from Russia to Nashville?
I can’t imagine the culture shock….
Defending Big D Check it out
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"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011
No, not at all.
Though, I guess he really went Russia to Quebec to Milwaukee to Nashville. So yeah that plus the what I assume was absurd money they threw at him to get a “marquee” player to defect.
I forget how much it was....but I know it was a pretty penny
Defending Big D Check it out
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"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011
Yep. You really need to know the guy and what he wants.
I believe that some Russian players would still like to play in the NHL even if they can make more money in KHL. It is also important what the team does to make them feel welcome here. It is easier to bring Russians to Washington, NY, Detroit because they have Russian players and know how to deal with them. Columbus absolutely fails at this. It might be tougher for Dallas since we didn’t have any since Zuby, but hey, we have Czechs, Danes, Swedes. I think Vincour could be a good roommate and mentor for a Russian kid next year.
I was talking about their top draft picks Zherdev (4th overall) and Filatov (6th overall).
Tyutin was drafted by Rangers and Nikitin came from Blues in a trade.
Nieuwendyk would be stupid not to draft any of the three Russians if one of them is still available.
I hope we will be high enough in the draft to get one of them. I hope Columbus would pass on Russian players at this point.
I concur...
Grigorenko is whom I want and I think we need, but Galchenyuk is whom we might end up getting and I’d be fine with that too.
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 1:22 PM CST up reply actions
Technically its only two
As Galchenyuk has joint American Russian citizenship and as far as I’m aware has always played and grown up in America… Though like Oleksiak he still has the choice to play for either national side. So the idea of the ‘Russian Factor’ isn’t really a factor at all in his case.
is it bad that that excites me?
is this bad? is this bad?
by the way worst e-news ever...
by heyitsthatguy! on Feb 9, 2012 8:32 AM CST up reply actions
It excites me too...
..so, no. Grigorenko is exactly whom we need.
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 8:35 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
I think I'm confused on how the draft order works
Aren’t there like 7 or 8 teams that have less points then Dallas? So how would the #3 pick end up with us?
"The Dallas Cowboys announced they have released Jerry Jones."
It wouldn't right now.
But they’re only 6 points away from being in position to have the third pick.
Defending Big D Check it out
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"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011
If we end up being the 7th worst team...
…and we win the lottery, we get the no.3 spot.
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 9:54 AM CST up reply actions
I'd prefer Grossman and Morrow be up for trading
I love Morrow…but it seems the team spirit has gone down along with his performance level. It may be time for a new captain but the only way to take away his captain position without making it very awkward is to trade him. Then bring Ott up as captain. He’s the one encouraging the team as they leave the ice and trying to provide a spark. See if he can peskify the whole team.
Morrow...
..with his neck problems, isn’t a tradeable commodity. The return won’t be appropriate.
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 8:33 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
Also
is it me or do people keep forgetting he has a NTC. So even if we wanted to move him it will be on him to waive this. This makes trading him very difficult without the loss of form and fitness
Give me a follow on twitter
@mattwrighty83
I did forget that
Doh
Not that I really want him gone…but I do wonder if we need a change in captains which becomes very awkward if he is still here.
I would hate for the team to lose Ott even more so. I feel without him the team loses what little spirit they seem to have.
Plus, making him captain would piss off a lot of teams because of how much they hate him. It would be great
Im the same
I have a great amount of respect for Morrow, and i get a little irked when people write him off and screem trade him when were in trouble.
He had 33 goals last year, has been injured all of this. Not his fault, just the way things go
Give me a follow on twitter
@mattwrighty83
No NTC
From DMM in 2010:Ott also has a no-trade clause, but it’s a strange one. He has a full no-trade for the 2010-11 season and then has no protection after that. It doesn;t seem logical, but that’s just where it ended up in the negotiation. So after July 1, 2011, he can be traded. If the Stars are interested in trading him after that, the higher salary does act as a possible deterrent.
by Barrett.Stars on Feb 9, 2012 10:53 AM CST up reply actions
why
They did it to #9
Its supranatural, you know, a higher level than supernatural
by Bayouboy99 on Feb 9, 2012 9:55 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Only problem with trading Ott to me would be they better be getting someone who is good at faceoffs as Ott is the only player on the team that wins them regularly.
If they're going through a youth movement are we really worried about specifically targetting faceoff takers in an Ott trade?
Just get the best deal.
Defending Big D Check it out
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"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011
uh...hell yeah!
What are you suggesting? Let young players sink or swim when they lose more faceoffs than they already do?
Remember, losing faceoffs means chasing in games. I would like to see less of that and more puck control/domination.
by deerslayertx on Feb 9, 2012 9:00 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
So you're offered a legitimate top four defenseman for Ott and you say no because of faceoffs?
That’s silly.
Ideally you want to win faceoffs, but getting players back specifically because they can win faceoffs for isn’t going to make a difference to the long term future of the Stars.
Defending Big D Check it out
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"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011
what team would do that?
NONE!
top 4 defensemen are hard to come by but you think trading Ott would fetch that?
Get realistic!
by deerslayertx on Feb 9, 2012 9:20 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
I didn't say it would.
I said trading Ott for someone that can take faceoffs is silly.
Defending Big D Check it out
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"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011
Ok...let's calm down
Feel free to debate all you want, but don’t start getting angry at each other. Keep it relatively nice.
Defending Big D- Dallas Stars news & analysis
@brandonworley - Follow me on Twitter!!
by Brandon Worley on Feb 9, 2012 9:23 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
Heck yeah....
… you tell him, slayah!!!
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 9:06 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Not so fast my friend
3 reasons Ott wont be traded:
1)Butch Ott works for the Stars
2)Otter has passion & grit for the team and the game. Isn’t this the message we are trying to get through to the whole team?
3)Most importantly, the Stars have taken a huge hit in attendance (which translates into a loss of revenues & moral support) with the Modano/Turco departures. I dont see a new owner letting Ott go. HE IS POPULAR AMONGST THE FAN BASE & HE IS A KEY ELEMENT TO THIS TEAM (3rd or 4th line).
Burrish & Grossman & Wandell will or should go.
Ribero makes 5 million? TOO MUCH!
by deerslayertx on Feb 9, 2012 8:54 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Larsen....
…too small. Trade him too.
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 9:00 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
I have been advocating that all year
I dont get it..
Joe says he wants to get size & tenacity on the blue line, yet Larson, Robidas & Grossman(wuss) make up half our top 6 defense.
by deerslayertx on Feb 9, 2012 9:04 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Grossman is 6'4.
And while you’re dumping short players…
Morrow 5’11/6’
Ott 5’11/6’
Goligoski 5’11
Daley 5’11
Fiddler 5’11
Ribeiro 5’11/6’
Robidas 5’11
Bachman 5’11
Larsen 6’0
Cut them all immediately….
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--iorange555 8/23/2011
did you see "wuss"
I said Grossman because he plays soft..reread size and tenacity
by deerslayertx on Feb 9, 2012 9:14 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
So you want a team of skillless big guys like Fistric?
They’d win 20 games.
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--iorange555 8/23/2011
Reread size and tenacity....
…The sooner you point to us where these two adjectives appear in your posts, we will.
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 9:18 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
So just because Grossman isn't a big hitter he has no value?
There’s a good reason teams are shopping for him and not someone like Fistric.
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by Brandon Worley on Feb 9, 2012 9:21 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
Penalty killing is a pretty valuable commodity
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--iorange555 8/23/2011
Either way Joe will make the right decision on d men. ex- Woywitka
"The Dallas Cowboys announced they have released Jerry Jones."
Too bad...
…Nicklas doesn’t have a Butch Grossman to make him extra-special and an untradeable asset.
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 9:25 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Ok...I laughed
But…once again, let’s stay relatively nice.
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by Brandon Worley on Feb 9, 2012 9:27 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
hahahahahhahahahaaha THIS^^^^
vimeo.com/graylikethecolor | twitter: @grayisthecolor | instagram: _graylikethecolor_ | PSN: graylikethecolor
by graylikethecolor on Feb 9, 2012 9:29 AM CST up reply actions
I will stay nice...
…if you tell me what Butch Ott does.
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 9:33 AM CST up reply actions
He's a scout
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--iorange555 8/23/2011
A scout....
…is special to the organization? Who’d have thunk it.
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 9:37 AM CST up reply actions
I think he's been around since well before they drafted Steve
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--iorange555 8/23/2011
look above
“Joe says he wants size & tenacity on blue line”
What the heck….does josh fight your battles too?
I thought this was a comment section where we post ideas and thoughts but apparently mr. Liles knows all and likes to be right about everything.
Maybe he should be co GM?
by deerslayertx on Feb 9, 2012 9:26 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Dude...
It’s just a hockey debate. Not everyone is going to agree with you on everything. That’s what the comments are about, to debate this sort of stuff.
The trick is to not let it get personal, and you are taking it that way.
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by Brandon Worley on Feb 9, 2012 9:29 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
In the future I'll make sure to bow to the wisdom of trading for players with size and faceoff ability
instead of skill.
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--iorange555 8/23/2011
faceoff ability
Isnt that a skill?
by deerslayertx on Feb 9, 2012 9:33 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Not really
And it’s biggest value is in the defensive zone where losing a faceoff leads to a 25% increase in the probability of giving up a goal. Ott plays with Benn so he isn’t taking many defensive faceoffs of late anyway. Fiddler is, and Fiddler is historically just as good at taking draws as Ott.
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--iorange555 8/23/2011
Not to mention that Jamie Benn isn't horrible in the faceoff circle.
He’s not great, but he’s not horrible. And he’s improving.
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by Brandon Worley on Feb 9, 2012 9:40 AM CST up reply actions
Ribs is horrible.
Just so that it has been said.
by Travis Drybread on Feb 9, 2012 9:41 AM CST up reply actions
need more than just fiddler though
by deerslayertx on Feb 9, 2012 9:43 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
If you're competing for a Stanley Cup
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--iorange555 8/23/2011
Here's the thing...
And I understand where you’re coming from.
But there’s a reason that Grossman holds trade value right now, and not Fistric. It’s not just about “passion.”
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by Brandon Worley on Feb 9, 2012 9:41 AM CST up reply actions
Well, another reason
Is Grossman is a rental, to be fair.
by StarzenheimerSchmidt on Feb 9, 2012 9:44 AM CST up reply actions
Which means the value goes down.
And he’s still being targeted.
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by Brandon Worley on Feb 9, 2012 9:46 AM CST up reply actions
Value goes down
but desire to be acquired goes up. If that makes sense. Only reason people are talking about him as a trading piece around the league is because he’s a UFA. If Fistric was there’d probably be some talk of him to. Not as much as Grossman…which means there wasn’t much point in me making my point I suppose. :D
by StarzenheimerSchmidt on Feb 9, 2012 9:49 AM CST up reply actions
Well, it's all tied together
As a UFA (and there’s a good chance he might not come back) he becomes more expendable to the Stars as well.
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by Brandon Worley on Feb 9, 2012 9:51 AM CST up reply actions
Fistric really isn't any good.
The Stars don’t even trust him.
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--iorange555 8/23/2011
Wasn't trying to argue
that he’s as good as Grossman.
by StarzenheimerSchmidt on Feb 9, 2012 9:59 AM CST up reply actions
Josh is not fighting my battles..
…your post on “size” and “tenacity” didn’t show up on my smartphone (which is what I was using) until just moments ago.
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 9:34 AM CST up reply actions
You have to have skill, not just size
Fistric has been scratched because he does little more than big hits.
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by Brandon Worley on Feb 9, 2012 9:19 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
explain gully wanting passionate play
I agree that Fistric is NOT the perfect answer …but he plays with passion.
Against the coyotes we could have used him because his style of play matched their style of play.
no one else played worth a crap
by deerslayertx on Feb 9, 2012 9:31 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
I don't understand how Fistric plays with passion, but Grossman, the Stars top penalty killer, doesn't.
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--iorange555 8/23/2011
Because...
…Butch Fistric ensures he plays with passion.
(okay…last time, promise!)
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 9:38 AM CST up reply actions
minutes
Fistric is fighting for minutes….
i have always liked Grossman until this year. He seems like he is not happy this year. No emotion. Alot of mistakes. He has passed up alot of oppurtunities to intimidate and control the area In front of the net…
I just want a shut down physical defensemen like hatcher.
by deerslayertx on Feb 9, 2012 9:39 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
That guy certainly isn't Fistric.
They put Goligoski on the PK before him.
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--iorange555 8/23/2011
He has never been a physical player. He's just not like that.
And…Jamie Oleksiak is going to be the same way. Grossman just isn’t like that and he never has been.
And just because Grossman hasn’t turned into Derian Hatcher is not a good reason to just start scratching him, not when he’s one of the better defensive defensemen on the team — especially on the PK.
What I think you’re seeing with Fistric is something tangible you can grasp onto — the physicality. That’s much more visible during games than the subtle defense that Grossman plays — which also means that mistakes Grossman makes are magnified.
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by Brandon Worley on Feb 9, 2012 9:43 AM CST up reply actions
A defenseman unnoticed is typically doing his job
Easy to forget that..
But, Grossman does seem to be noticed more often giving the puck to the other team. If he fixes that then things will be better again
My biggest worry with Grossman lately is the turnovers
i haven’t gotten to watch many games lately but every time I do it seems he’s handing it over. Perhaps a lack of confidence and making soft passes?
He could stand to take some classes on how to be mean from the Hatcher school of defense though
Yeah....we'd all love for him to be super physical.
Let’s also remember that 50% of the stuff Hatcher used to do would lead to some incredibly high penalty numbers.
Sheldon Souray is being super physical these season and look at the penalties he’s taking.
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by Brandon Worley on Feb 9, 2012 9:45 AM CST up reply actions
Agreed.
But, as we’ve seen the past few years, we have to be careful about those big hitting super defensemen — especially very big ones.
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by Brandon Worley on Feb 9, 2012 9:52 AM CST up reply actions
And especially be careful about trying to force guys to play like that when they aren't naturally inclined.
See the entire Stars D corp under Crawford trying to play offense.
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--iorange555 8/23/2011
Exactly.
Like I said, people are going to be disappointed when Oleksiak shows up and he’s not Zdeno Chara #2.
Oleksiak uses his size for reach and defensive positioning, not physical intimidation. He’s working on it, though.
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by Brandon Worley on Feb 9, 2012 9:54 AM CST up reply actions
Even Chara...
…is judicious with his physicality. His size and strength are more often used for the same things Oleksiak uses.
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 9:57 AM CST up reply actions
Quite possibly so
I think that is what we all expect when we hear about Oleksiak…especially those of us who have never had the chance to see him play.
To me…positioning is the most important thing for a D-man. That is one of the reasons I love Robidas. But…with that being said it seems every team is better off having at least one guy that can shut down forwards with his size. Fistric is a great hitter but he gets out of position. Grossman is in position but sends guys apology notes after hitting them. If we could combine them we would have that important disciplined hitting D man.
The length is useful if the guy is mobile.
The stick coverage Chara gets is a huge bonus, but if he couldn’t skate, didn’t have hockey sense, or didn’t generally know how to apply his size it would be worthless.
I understand the desire for size in the way you described it….it can be valuable definitely. But getting guys just because they’re big and can hit people? No. Give me Robidas any day of the week.
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--iorange555 8/23/2011
Dylan McIlrath taken #10 overall in 2010
Just because he is a big, big hitter.
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by Brandon Worley on Feb 9, 2012 10:06 AM CST up reply actions
He was connected to the Stars for a while too, no?
Wasn’t he one of the big WHL dmen they were supposedly in on?
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I don't know about that.
I know they were high on Skinner and Granlund, but they were high on Campbell from the very start.
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by Brandon Worley on Feb 9, 2012 10:10 AM CST up reply actions
I agree with you there...in this tiny post
I wouldn’t put Shaq on the team just because he is big. Positioning is the number one thing which requires hockey sense and skating. One of which isn’t 100% teachable. That is what makes Robidas so valuable even though the poor guy gets hammered every game by a forward.
I think we’re starting to go in circles here
Probably, but what else is new
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--iorange555 8/23/2011
Oleksiak is great positionally
And he has tremendous skating ability.
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by Brandon Worley on Feb 9, 2012 10:05 AM CST up reply actions
Maybe his skating is what ends up making him > Chara in the long run...
…hopefully. Chara isn’t a great skater.
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 10:07 AM CST up reply actions
Chara is better a skater than you think.
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by Brandon Worley on Feb 9, 2012 10:08 AM CST up reply actions
How do you know what I think? :)
A little explanation might clear that up, though.
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 10:14 AM CST up reply actions
Ah..."Chara isn't a great skater"
My response is that Chara is actually a good skater for his size, which is why he’s so effective.
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by Brandon Worley on Feb 9, 2012 10:15 AM CST up reply actions
"Chara is actually a good skater for his size"
Oh, I don’t deny that, but I use the term “great” as a superlative for players who are huge and skate like the wind..Hedman, for example.
Maybe Oleksiak is the wind? You’d know better
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 10:23 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, Hedman is a good comparison but he's not as big.
Hedman is more “svelte”….6-6, 230
Oleksiak is 6-7, 250.
Oleksiak’s biggest asset is his skating ability, something that has surprised a lot of scouts. He’s developing faster than expected as well.
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by Brandon Worley on Feb 9, 2012 10:26 AM CST up reply actions
Hedman is more 'svelte'...
…http://adventuresinpucking.wordpress.com/2011/09/27/man-of-the-day-927-victor-hedman/ (scroll down)
Yep…he just doesn’t have Chara’s muscle mass.
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 10:31 AM CST up reply actions
HA!
I wish I was svelte like that.
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by Brandon Worley on Feb 9, 2012 10:33 AM CST up reply actions
Chara
looks pretty skinny to me.
by StarzenheimerSchmidt on Feb 9, 2012 1:09 PM CST up reply actions
+1
Its supranatural, you know, a higher level than supernatural
by Bayouboy99 on Feb 9, 2012 10:15 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Larsen is too good to trade
He has the best outlet pass of our D core and is a smart player. Next idea.
Larsen
is a good player, and should get a lot better. Has a lot of upside considering he hasn’t played NA hockey long and dmen don’t hit their stride till their mid 20’s.
by StarzenheimerSchmidt on Feb 9, 2012 9:42 AM CST up reply actions
"Trade Larsen..too small"
…was borne out of sarcasm.
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 9:46 AM CST up reply actions
OK
so much going on so fast in this thread..lol
by StarzenheimerSchmidt on Feb 9, 2012 9:47 AM CST up reply actions
I agree...
…hard to keep up on my smartphone.
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 9:50 AM CST up reply actions
Can't even keep up on the computer
Especially when I get distracted at work. Don’t people realize how important hockey is???
Dual monitors = winning
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--iorange555 8/23/2011
I almost responded to that
But then realized you were being facetious and trying to bait me! Almost got me.
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by Brandon Worley on Feb 9, 2012 10:01 AM CST up reply actions
what
We only have 2 capable offensive Dmen. #33 & #36. The only time i ever see the puck leave the zone on a regular basis by our D is when those 2 guys are on the ice. He’s a rookie. He already does what Daley does better. I’d like to see Daley play wing, just as an experiment. He can’t be worse than what we put on the 4th line not named wandell/burish
Its supranatural, you know, a higher level than supernatural
by Bayouboy99 on Feb 9, 2012 10:14 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
He was being sarcastic about Larsen.
Daley is also a very good defender.
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by Brandon Worley on Feb 9, 2012 10:16 AM CST up reply actions
I'm new to this blog
Not new to hockey.
Its supranatural, you know, a higher level than supernatural
by Bayouboy99 on Feb 9, 2012 10:20 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Ok....
I wasn’t saying you were…
I was just saying that Daley is one of the better defensemen on the team, that’s all. And he’s been consistent for most of the past few seasons.
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by Brandon Worley on Feb 9, 2012 10:22 AM CST up reply actions
It must be difficult to explain your hockey intelligence to people, BW
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yes I agree
Everyone has wanted Daley to be this offensive juggernaut. I dont get caught up in that. I love his skating & D.
Its supranatural, you know, a higher level than supernatural
by Bayouboy99 on Feb 9, 2012 10:29 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Exactly.
That’s also what is most important, really. While we need more offense from the defensemen, I’d rather they play better defense first.
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by Brandon Worley on Feb 9, 2012 10:31 AM CST up reply actions
I've been happy with his offense
He contributes when he can but his main focus is on defending which is his job. He is a great skater and puckhandler and uses that to his advantage…but we’d be upset if he tried to break up the ice every shift and couldn’t always get back on D.
I think he has come a long way from a few years ago.
Daley has been
great for a good while now.
I keep saying he got a bad rep from playing with woywitka last season.
This year his skating, defense and offense have all been on an upward curve.
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As long as Butch Ott isn't the GM I don't see what relevance that has.
2. On most nights they’re a passionless team. Is it making that much of a difference?
3. The fanbase will get over it.
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--iorange555 8/23/2011
Butch Ott....
…Janitor? Peon? Ice Girl?
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 9:05 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Explain the message sent
Gully has been advocating playing with passion. The one guy who has done that and you want to trade him?
Ott cant take the fall for the rest of the team playing like crap.
Butch isnt GM but come on you cant say that Butch Ott & Steve are special to the organization.
FISTRIC BETTER PLAY TONIGHT!
by deerslayertx on Feb 9, 2012 9:12 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Fistric sucks.
Where is all this supposed passion of Ott manifesting itself? They’ve been utterly (otterly?) lifeless since the All Star break. You say he’s playing with passion…..when? He’s not being scapegoated. He’s part of the problem.
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--iorange555 8/23/2011
ummm
Does is it suck to always have to defend your hockey knowledge JL.
Its supranatural, you know, a higher level than supernatural
by Bayouboy99 on Feb 9, 2012 10:04 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
I don't even know how to respond to this
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You can't win with Ott-boys...
…period. You are dealing with a cult.
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 10:11 AM CST up reply actions
I agree with you on Fistric.
Trade Grossman and put Fistric in the lineup with 3rd pairing minutes. We need a rectum-rattling hitter out there.
"The Dallas Cowboys announced they have released Jerry Jones."
I can see how Ott Jr. is special to his cult of followers...
…What makes Butch so special to the Stars?
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 9:21 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Not so fast my friend
3 reasons Ott wont be traded:
1)Butch Ott works for the Stars
2)Otter has passion & grit for the team and the game. Isn’t this the message we are trying to get through to the whole team?
3)Most importantly, the Stars have taken a huge hit in attendance (which translates into a loss of revenues & moral support) with the Modano/Turco departures. I dont see a new owner letting Ott go. HE IS POPULAR AMONGST THE FAN BASE & HE IS A KEY ELEMENT TO THIS TEAM (3rd or 4th line).
Burrish & Grossman & Wandell will or should go.
Ribero makes 5 million? TOO MUCH!
by deerslayertx on Feb 9, 2012 8:54 AM CST via mobile reply actions
I'm open to all trade scenerios not involving
14, 21, 33, 32 and 6 (we signed him through 2014 right?). I love Otter and guys like Robi, but if we can get young guys that will be good players in this league for the next 10+ years we should go for it.
Oy, vey.
Reading the comments in this thread is giving me a headache.
Honestly, I think there are very few untradeable commodities on this team, at least in Joe’s eyes. He’s got to look at every possibility. Do I want to see Ott traded? Not so much. But if it happens, we’ll just have to see what it happens in return for and decide how we feel about it then.
by WingnutInStarsCountry on Feb 9, 2012 9:56 AM CST reply actions
Yea wrong thread to view on an iPod, font got really small with all the replies, but I kinda got the point after a few posts
And I agree with, not just because you have one of the few comments I can read, I don’t see many people who can get traded either. And for me personally I’ll just wait until something happens or doesn’t happen to decide how I feel about it, I see no point in going back and forth about things that haven’t happen or won’t happen.
by chris1989 on Feb 9, 2012 10:39 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
God I love this...
You guys act like their really going to do anything… we’re not getting anyone….an this team is going to finish just like last year…maybe even worse….atleast last year they almost made it…lol
"Only the dead have seen the end of war" Plato
by k9mike on Feb 9, 2012 9:58 AM CST via mobile reply actions
"an this team is going to finish just like last year…maybe even worse"
Better than finishing at the bubble.
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 10:12 AM CST up reply actions
HOT THREAD!!!!
i’m working, otherwise i’d have dived in WAY back.
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by graylikethecolor on Feb 9, 2012 10:13 AM CST reply actions
I think I may close this thread....
We need to keep our heads around here. Not a fan of the way some of us are taking comments personally.
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Probably not a bad idea
I don’t think I’ve seen a thread w/ this much poking/criticizing on DBD. C’mon guys, we’re all Stars fans.
by Trillmike on Feb 9, 2012 10:48 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
It's over and done with...
…for now. Tempers shall flare post-Buffalo game.
by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 9, 2012 10:49 AM CST up reply actions
If the stars played with this kind of passion
We’d be doing alright.
by Clint Norman on Feb 9, 2012 11:41 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Didn’t mean to implying not trading Ott just becuase of his faceoffs but more that I don’t think he would bring that much value back compared to what he does for the Stars. I guess Ott has more value then I thought.
I’d still rather them trade Morrow as he more likely to bring something of significance back. But doesn’t really matter we’ve seen this team for the past four years now play the bubble team role they won’t do anything at the deadline even with a new owner.
Maternowski gets me everytime
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by graylikethecolor on Feb 9, 2012 10:52 AM CST reply actions
Adan Pardy recalled.
I watched him last night in Austin. I was surprised by how the Team nutted up and came back from an early 3-0 deficit. Pretty awesome, actually.
Fraser looked pretty good. Garbutt had some HUSTLE to his game. Glennie… OK, people have said stuff about Glennie… But last night, the kid looked like he could be an NHL’er in a couple years. I say next year we might be seeing him in Dallas a bit, just a few call ups, then in 2013-4 he’ll be up at the NHL level. I truly think he just needs to age a bit and we’ll see some seriousness out of the kid. Great numbers in junior don’t always translate in the AHL, but, watching how he handled himself in his shifts was impressive.
OK, so Pardy being recalled… does that mean a move is imminent? What i liked from Pardy last night was that he played like a Big Fish in a small pond. He asserted himself and I don’t think he does that in Dallas. I think he’s hesitant and tentative and maybe afraid to make mistakes? I’m not sure. I just watched him assert himself last night that I was saying “why doesn’t he do this in Dallas?” maybe it’s just the translation of Big Fish to Little Fish.
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by graylikethecolor on Feb 9, 2012 11:09 AM CST reply actions
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Great numbers in junior don’t always translate in the AHL
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