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2012 NHL Trade Deadline: Why Sellers Have To Think Like Buyers

Every time the NHL trade deadline rolls around, there's always a lot of discussion about who will be a buyer and a seller.

Dallas Stars fans have been asking that very question about their favorite team recently as the Stars dance on the edge of the playoffs but can't seem to make that final push to get into the top eight. And with a first-round matchup looming with someone like the Detroit Red Wings, some wonder whether making the playoffs this year should even be a goal in terms of the long-term franchise planning.

But I get a little frustrated with the group that wants the Stars to be sellers. It's not that I don't see their point - I do and I mostly agree with them - but it's that much of the discussion revolves around who the Stars should get rid of rather than who they should obtain.

I believe even if your franchise is not stocking up for a playoff run in eight weeks, you need to approach the trade deadline as a buyer, just not of immediate assets. Teams who are looking to the future rather than planning for the present need to approach the deadline as if they are buying future players rather than selling current ones.

This may seem like a difference in semantics, but I think it will be key in how the Stars fair this week and into the future.

After the jump, an explanation of why this isn't just an argument about semantic, how successful franchises manage their trades for future assets and how the salary cap plays into all of this.

Star-divide

So, you might wonder, what's the problem with saying I want to sell off, say, Brenden Morrow to the highest bidder? And to be clear, I'm using him because he's an example of a guy who almost certainly won't be traded this year because of the injury issues alone.

Well, for one, it's entirely the wrong way to approach things. Once a team has decided this year is not "their year" and they want to prepare for future seasons rather than focus on this one, sure, one of the things to do is to make a list of the players not likely to be involved in whenever they target that future to be.

But what matters most, then, is the team that you want to have in the future. So it only makes sense to identify what that team lacks and go out and look for it. Does the group you expect to have in three years lack a top six right winger? Then,it's up to the scouts to find an available player that they project to be in the top six at the NHL level in three years. Is your team short scoring centers? Those should be the focus rather than picking up, say, more puck moving defensemen.

Once those players are identified, either as individuals or as a position, age and projection, then, and only then, you move onto the question of "what will they cost?" If your future second-line right winger is going to cost you a player like Morrow, that's fine. He's not a key part of the hypothetical plan, and you can use him to acquire a needed asset for the future. Much like with teams that are building for now, the player who is going to the other team should be secondary to the players that are coming back.

Yes, the plan has to be flexible because of things like injuries, and a full picture can't be painted without deciding which players a team might rather get through free agency. But having a working outline of what a team's future might look like is the best way to make the moves the benefit a team the most in the future.

The danger with looking at it the other way (the "sell Morrow to the highest bidder" way), is that maximum asset acquisition does not equal maximum franchise benefit. If the Stars, for instance, got an offer for Sheldon Souray where the best pieces were 22-year-old defensemen with a likely ceiling of a 4/5 defensive defenseman and a 19-year old lforward, recently taken in the first round of the draft, who didn't score a lot but was a defensive wunderkind, then that move doesn't make sense. The Stars have depth in both of those areas for now and the reasonable future. An offer for a 20-year-old center with decent offensive potential but who needed some seasoning in the minors is a lesser price on the asset acquisition scale but eons higher in terms of franchise benefit.

So where do draft picks fit in all of this? It all depends on how you use them and when the future is that you're building for. Personally, I think any draft pick can't be expected to contribute at the NHL level for at least 3 years and usually 4-5. And as they are very unpredictable in terms of both who will be available at any given spot as well as development curves, they're hard to put into a specific design of a team going forward. And that's before you get into the realities of the chance of any given draft pick, particularly low-round ones, becoming an regular NHL player.

But there is absolutely a place for acquiring picks, particularly if the plan is to turn those picks into a more predictable asset at some point. One of the theories about the Nicklas Grossman trade is that the Stars will flip the second and third rounders acquired from the Philadelphia Flyers at some point for a young player. Personally, I'm very skittish about trading known and controlled assets for what amounts to a scratch-off ticket at the future hockey player lottery, especially if the player being traded is under contract beyond the current season. But if a team trusts its scouting department enough to find potential greatness in the lower rounds, then it's a calculated risk I can usually live with.

I will admit, there is some logic to acquiring as many assets as you can in each trade to maximize your options and flexibility in the future, but even that has to be approached with some sort of plan in place. Without a plan, you become a team like the Columbus Blue Jackets that continually trades off its better players for the best asset acquisition package but doesn't use those assets for any franchise benefit. Then the team is bad, the players are sold and the process repeats.

Now, there is a slight complication for a team like the Stars this year - the salary cap floor. The Stars are projected to be in the neighborhood of $1.1-1.5 million above the floor when all is said and done given the structure of the roster at the moment. This number will change when when bonuses become unattainable and everyone is healthy, if everyone ever gets healthy, because they are carrying 24 players.

To have a trade cleared by the NHL, the Stars have to remain above the floor at all times, so if they want to use some combination of their more expensive assets to acquire guys in the minors or even draft picks, they will have to take some current salary back. Ideally in this case, you'd like to find a team with a guy in the NHL in an organization with depth at his position - Alex Goligoski with the Pittsburgh Penguins is the perfect example of that.

But the point remains the same - if the Stars give up on the playoff race at some time between now and the trade deadline, they should not approach any personnel moves with the idea that they are trying to get rid of players for whatever they might be offers. Rather, they should target the pieces they need for the future and use their current assets to go acquire them.


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Good Point

If you are going to sell, then you better have a plan. The Rangers are a great example of this. They had a target date to compete and sold pieces that didn’t fit for pieces that would help in the future and fill needs that the farm couldn’t. However, I think it’s hard for those of us advocating selling to have a plan. We don’t know who is available and for what price. I’m in the camp of if someone makes a good offer for some of our vets then we should at least consider it, but you’re right that you need to have a plan of what type of return you desire. Otherwise, yeah, you have a bunch of talent that is basically mismatched parts.

by staelfissh on Feb 22, 2012 11:10 AM CST reply actions  

That's a good point.

We can’t be expected to be experts on other team’s prospects.

by Ronin56 on Feb 22, 2012 11:42 AM CST up reply actions  

Agree

Our core of NHL players that can be counted on is small and balanced across positions. With assessing our prospects you can only look at generalities, because you can count on very few specific players. In general, we can place a big check mark on covering beefy, defensive defensemen. We don’t have much in terms of offensive defensemen. Wingers – we have several nice prospects, mostly on the right wing, but thin on the left. Center – the cupboard is rather bare, be it offensive, defensive, whatever. Goalie – we have Campbell, and not much else of note.

What I can tell you for certain is that players past their 20s will be of minimal value to us 4-5 years out.

So we are short top-6 C, LW, top pair offensive defensemen. Add to that extra draft picks to deepen the prospect stock. More specifics I will leave to the professional scouts.

by denniso on Feb 22, 2012 12:23 PM CST up reply actions  

any chance the stars have at acquiring talent

Should be looked at. More than anything, we lack overall talent. Also, we have some baby stars that could fill out our bottom 6 rt now. I’d like to a few openings for them.

Its supranatural, you know, a higher level than supernatural

by Bayouboy99 on Feb 22, 2012 11:20 AM CST via iPhone app reply actions  

My theory

Some people who say “sell” base their opinion on what’s not working. If it’s broke, get rid of it.

It’s easier to say “sell” than “buy” if you don’t know exactly who would help. That’s why Joe has a tough job.

Defending Big D's "Official" Western New York Representative

by Mike Russo on Feb 22, 2012 11:24 AM CST reply actions  

Some “Solutions”:
Offense:
B. Dubinsky (RW/C) , S. Gagner ©, J V Reimsdyk (LW) ,
Defense:
M Green (Was), P.K. Subban (Mon)

F/A:
Z. Parise, A. Semin
R. Suter, J. Oduya

As an example, washington seems like the kind of team that could really use Steve Ott (especially for a playoff run). A draft pick could also be included.

by jifan on Feb 22, 2012 11:48 AM CST up reply actions  

Mostly players I would have no problem seeing in a Stars uni

I have a couple reservations about Semin and Green. Just don’t know what it would take to pry them away from there teams. Given the trade history between the two teams Subban and Pacioretty for Pardy?

by staelfissh on Feb 22, 2012 12:00 PM CST up reply actions  

I'd love to have Pacioretty on this team

He’s exactly what we need. Problem is that he would cost a lot to get. Then again, it is Pierre Gauthier that we’re talking about…

"If the laws of physics no longer apply in the future, God help you."

by Virginian Star on Feb 22, 2012 12:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Patches...

…is not going anywhere. Gauthier would be foolish to deal Subban or him for future pieces when it’s obvious they are part of that organization’s future.

by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 22, 2012 12:53 PM CST up reply actions  

The Stars have done well with players needing fresh starts- Ribeiro, Lehtonen.

I imagine that could translate to Semin being successful here possibly. I want us to try for JVR, a few insiders have been saying the Flyers are willing to move him.

"The Dallas Cowboys announced they have released Jerry Jones."

by T-rom on Feb 22, 2012 12:04 PM CST up reply actions  

I listed these players because they will soon be cornerstones of which ever teams they are on, and they are currently on teams that are competing and need pieces that the Stars have.

Green has been injured all year, and Washington needs a Steve Ott type. I could also see Vincour in return, as there has always been an eastern europe club in D.C.

Philadelphia needs a Brendan Morrow (in the summer) leader for their playoff run

Edmonton needs veteran help on defense, and possibly a goaltender (Robidas, Bachmann, Fistric).

The Rangers need nothing, since they got it in FA (A healthy richards would have returned Dubinsky, easy). So here, a prospect and picks would be the likely coice, or in addition to a Steve Ott to replace Avery.

Montreal needs scoring depth and could use Ribero and/or Robidas

The likeliest to move would be Green, if the GM has the balls to trade for him – Washington’s playoff window is closing, and they need leadership and they could be moving out talent to do so.

by jifan on Feb 22, 2012 12:14 PM CST up reply actions  

Of all of those

I’d like Suter, Parise, and Gagner the most.

No way we can land all three, but it’d be pretty sweet if we did.

by Travis Drybread 2 on Feb 22, 2012 12:09 PM CST up reply actions  

green is to injury prone.

Subban should be untouchable. Rangers would be stupid to trade Dubi.(he loves being a Ranger) the other guys I would wait for FA.

Its supranatural, you know, a higher level than supernatural

by Bayouboy99 on Feb 22, 2012 12:27 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions  

Yes, Green has been out for nearly the entire year – but he is the kind of guy you can build around. AND would be the likeliest to move of the franchise-level defensemen, given the injury and the state of the Capitals in general. Their team needs a boost to get in the playoffs and they need a spine once they are in – that would be Steve Ott, no?

Also, Green would sell tickets.

by jifan on Feb 22, 2012 12:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Hmm, good points.

But this team has already Goose, Daley Larsen…

Would I like Green here, sure. But he is not a must. Not anymore.

What is it good for? Absolutely everything.

by Henri Muroke on Feb 22, 2012 12:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Daley should also be moved – he is entering his prime, and can be replaced by any number of tier 3 defensemen in FA.

by jifan on Feb 22, 2012 12:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Don't think Daley is going anywhere.

I’m kinda glad that there are not many days and we will know more.

What is it good for? Absolutely everything.

by Henri Muroke on Feb 22, 2012 1:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Essentially, if someone like Daley had to go back for an injured Mike Green.. Say it was Ott and Daley for Mike Green, I would still do it. It isn’t that I’m undervaluing the Stars’ players, or overvaluing Washington’s, it would be because you would have the chance to exchange role players for play-makers.

As Joe has shown, he is really good at finding role players in FA..

by jifan on Feb 22, 2012 12:50 PM CST up reply actions  

if were trading with the caps

It’s either Semin or Carlson(pipe dream) that we should go for.

Its supranatural, you know, a higher level than supernatural

by Bayouboy99 on Feb 22, 2012 12:55 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions  

Green

is back in the lineup unless he already was injured again.

by StarzenheimerSchmidt on Feb 22, 2012 1:12 PM CST up reply actions  

I guess the wildcard

in all of this is the attendance issue. Does Gags have enough Benjamins stacked up to offset an empty building.

We’re either going to be dealing with losing some fan-favorites for one new face, or riding the status quo and building for the future. Either way, folks will go away miffed – for a while anyway. How badly does he need to sell tickets?

Another good read, Erin.

"Goaltenders are 3 sandwiches shy of a picnic. From the moment primitive man lurched erect, he survived on the principle that when something hard and potentially lethal comes toward you at great velocity, get the hell out of it's path." - Jim Taylor

by Netminder#20 on Feb 22, 2012 11:25 AM CST reply actions  

Yeah

I almost wonder if it would be a wash in attendance (unless they make the playoffs this season). Another mediocre season vs. losing some fan favorites, not sure what hurts the gate more.

by staelfissh on Feb 22, 2012 11:28 AM CST up reply actions  

But if they make some good acquisitions over the summer the fanbase may show more interest next season.

Then it will be up to the team to play well and win some games.

"The Dallas Cowboys announced they have released Jerry Jones."

by T-rom on Feb 22, 2012 11:44 AM CST up reply actions  

Right.

If people sense it’s a new era in Stars hockey with some new faces, rather than the same mediocre group, they will hopefully want to check them out and see how they do. Then if they win, people will stay.

And if they play like crap and lose, it will be ‘same old Stars’ and the building will soon be empty again.

by cms1171 on Feb 22, 2012 11:49 AM CST up reply actions  

That's definitely true

I was just trying to address the idea some people have put forth that it would really hurt attendance to trade Ott/Ribeiro/Morrow (I know he’s untradeable, is that a word?). I’m not sure that it’s any worse that another mediocre season hurts them. That’s all. I imagine new faces would hopefully energize the fan base. Of course, winning is what does the trick the best.

by staelfissh on Feb 22, 2012 11:55 AM CST up reply actions  

The only problem with trading Ribeiro is that you're giving up something in an area that we're already weak in.

We don’t have any playmaking centers beyond Ribs and Benn, so the return will likely have to be extremely high for Ribeiro to get traded.

by Travis Drybread 2 on Feb 22, 2012 11:59 AM CST up reply actions  

We need to move some players.

But I really don’t want Ott or Ribs traded unless Joe gets blown away by an offer. Ribeiro’s contract is up after next season so maybe next year the team will be better at C and he could be traded as a rental.
Ott just embodies what Joe wants in his team.

"The Dallas Cowboys announced they have released Jerry Jones."

by T-rom on Feb 22, 2012 12:02 PM CST up reply actions  

True. Ott and Ribs are tough to trade in my opinion.

Guys with expiring contracts and guys like Ryder, that are valuable and likely won’t be here when this team returns to contender status need to be shopped. A 20+ goal scorer has got to have a lot of value right about now.

by Travis Drybread 2 on Feb 22, 2012 12:05 PM CST up reply actions  

This team has trouble scoring.

Trading away Ryder would really hurt in that department. Also, I’m not sure what kind of message that send to FA’s if we trade someone a year after signing them.

by staelfissh on Feb 22, 2012 12:09 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm sure players would understand the situation that the team is in at this point.

And I’m not saying that they’ll trade him, but they’ve got to at least listen if someone calls in about him. We have trouble scoring, yes, and it’ll hurt us this year, but if trading him pulls in an early round pick and a solid center prospect, I think it’s worth it.

by Travis Drybread 2 on Feb 22, 2012 12:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Sure

I think like most people on the roster he’s not on the no-trade list. Pretty much everyone should be available for the right price. It’s all about what you get back.

by staelfissh on Feb 22, 2012 12:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Ryder and a draft pick to L.A. for Jack Johnson?

by jifan on Feb 22, 2012 12:39 PM CST up reply actions  

Good post.

And not many days and we may learn some more.

What is it good for? Absolutely everything.

by Henri Muroke on Feb 22, 2012 11:39 AM CST reply actions  

Great points made, Erin.

Trading away players is only useful if you’re getting good value back. Just giving them away for the sake of reshuffling the deck is not a good strategy to take, even if the current crop can’t seem to get it done.

by Ronin56 on Feb 22, 2012 11:40 AM CST reply actions  

This will be an interesting week.

Especially after last night’s results. While I still think we’re a long shot to climb into 8th, we definitely aren’t out of it either. That makes for hard decisions.

Overall, I would still like to try to get younger. Move some guys who will very likely not be here next year and definitely aren’t part of the future and try to bring younger plays that can fill a need. Easier said than done of course.

I by no means think we should do a full firesale and unload 3/4 of the roster for picks. (Which we can’t do anyway for cap floor reasons)

by cms1171 on Feb 22, 2012 11:44 AM CST reply actions  

Getting younger

suits me fine as well. With the way Vincour and Garbutt have been inspiring their squad, bringing in youth has proven helpful already.

"Goaltenders are 3 sandwiches shy of a picnic. From the moment primitive man lurched erect, he survived on the principle that when something hard and potentially lethal comes toward you at great velocity, get the hell out of it's path." - Jim Taylor

by Netminder#20 on Feb 22, 2012 11:53 AM CST up reply actions  

Trade the expiring contracts and

see what a guy like Ryder is worth on the open market.

If a guy like Downie can net Kyle Quincey, who, in turn, is worth a 1st round pick, you’ve got to think that Ryder could net us at least a low 1st rounder or a solid prospect from a team that needs a little boost to their goal scoring to make a Cup run.

Ya, it’ll hurt us in the short run, but in the long run, it would like prove very fruitful.

by Travis Drybread 2 on Feb 22, 2012 12:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Free Agency

The other issue Joe has to consider is the chance of a lockout and how any concerns about that might affect free agency. Will there be a lot of free agents? Will there be money in play for them or will GMs be reluctant to sign if they’re unsure about a potential lockout?

Obviously, the Stars have a lot of cap room so it might be a good time to be buyers in the off-season.

And any chance the Stars trade a player and their 2nd pick to move to a high 1st?

by jabudi on Feb 22, 2012 11:47 AM CST reply actions  

when we say fan favourites

We’re really talking about 3 guys. Ott, Robi, and Burish. The fans they want to fill the AAC, I don’t really think that matters. They just want a competitive team on the ice that is worth spending there money on. This is only opinion, but its a reaction to what I’ve read on here the last 2 years

Its supranatural, you know, a higher level than supernatural

by Bayouboy99 on Feb 22, 2012 12:00 PM CST via iPhone app reply actions  

Is the avg joe sports fan in Dallas aware of Jamie Benn?

If not they need to make sure to market Benn heavily. He alone could put some fans in the AAC.

"The Dallas Cowboys announced they have released Jerry Jones."

by T-rom on Feb 22, 2012 12:06 PM CST up reply actions  

Probably not.

They’ve gotten much better on the marketing side. I see their ads on those electronic billboards along 35E and the Dallas North Tollway all the time.

Nothing about Benn, but the team is advertised much more than it was during the Hicks fiasco.

Also, Derek Holland is trying to help us out by using the Rangers popularity to bring some teams in.

by Travis Drybread 2 on Feb 22, 2012 12:08 PM CST up reply actions  

I see those billboards on the way to my internship every morning and it makes me smile

I also heard the Derek Holland commercial promoting the Stars this morning and I cracked up! Best. Marketing. Idea. Ever.

DIY: do it yourself hockey! - Razor

by diamondicegirl on Feb 22, 2012 1:12 PM CST up reply actions  

idk I don't live in the metroplex

But Benn is the core, so I never think about him when I think of who should get traded

Its supranatural, you know, a higher level than supernatural

by Bayouboy99 on Feb 22, 2012 12:19 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions  

I think people are slowly becoming aware.

I think a combination of being the only All-Star plus a marketing push is helping out.

by staelfissh on Feb 22, 2012 12:20 PM CST up reply actions  

And they gave up 2 draft picks and an AHL guy for him

Looks like Phoenix is trying to make a run this year.

by cms1171 on Feb 22, 2012 12:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Salary dump move...

…that’s what it looks like. Vermette’s 3 more years @3.75M/year now belongs to the Coyotes. IMO, it helps with the selling of the franchise.

by Dallas_Stars74 on Feb 22, 2012 12:44 PM CST up reply actions  

I think the point you made

is the one that Joe was making after the Grossman trade. He said something along the lines of ‘I wouldn’t say we were sellers’. If we have pieces we think we can move then we need to sit down and look at who might be interested/needs those pieces. Then see if they have any players/prospects/picks that would make it worth our while and whether they would fit in with our long term vision for the future. We need to think that if we do trade some of the older players away that we are buying parts for us to be successful next season or the season after. It’s a more positive way of looking at it all…

by Huw Wales on Feb 22, 2012 12:11 PM CST reply actions  

What is the point here? Noone advocates trading valuable assets for the biggest quantity return. I though Bob Sturm did a fairly good job answering your question on the podcast this franchise needs good players all over the place and thats what you trade for, players and assets you think will be useful.

by TimAH on Feb 22, 2012 12:33 PM CST reply actions  

How the hell?

Did Columbus agree to this vermette trade!?

The biggest Stars fan in Sweden. Prove me wrong :)

by FMVSTAR on Feb 22, 2012 1:06 PM CST reply actions  

They definitely didn't get much for him.

Looks like they’re just trying to stock up on draft picks.

by Travis Drybread 2 on Feb 22, 2012 1:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Get Carter!

The biggest Stars fan in Sweden. Prove me wrong :)

by FMVSTAR on Feb 22, 2012 1:32 PM CST up reply actions  

ha!!

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by Brandon Worley on Feb 22, 2012 1:38 PM CST via Android app up reply actions  

Maybe they're making a run for the playoffs

They just needed the extra cap space to land Nash.

by jabudi on Feb 22, 2012 1:42 PM CST up reply actions  

Any wonder why Columbus is what they are?

Turrible trade. Phoenix just got a whole lot better.

by irchmo on Feb 22, 2012 1:58 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes it's a talent evaluation

but there’s also such a thing as sell high, get the best players/picks back you can and make it work or use those assets to get what you need. They are scouting specific players but goes way beyond the general 1st line left wing or 2nd line center.

It’s also about determining a direction for your franchise and adding to the core you have. That means targeting the JVR’s, Gagner, Blum’s, Gormley’s and the like. But the sad truth is that what’s here now isn’t working and saying it’s time to move on from the past, Robidas, Morrow, Ott, and Ribeiro is acknowledging that what’s here isn’t sufficient. It’s actually just as much about selling as it is buying. Going on 4 years of futility more than demonstrates that.

by Hull Fan on Feb 22, 2012 1:54 PM CST reply actions  

This is armchair GM 101 stuff

The cap floor point is good though.

by irchmo on Feb 22, 2012 2:04 PM CST reply actions  

To continue the topic

Just like investing money in T-bills, stocks or real estate there are differing degrees of liquidity for hockey assets. Older vets with long term contracts are not easy to move if they don’t work. Young players with lots of potential are a lot easier to move … even if they don’t fit your long term plan, as long as you value them correctly. Draft picks, especially early rounds, would be very liquid and have value to most any seller/buyer but can be hard to accurately value.

So a strategy of maximizing your sale to a team that really needs something you have, right now if it returns a liquid easily moved asset at a good price can be moved for the piece you really need a bit down the line.

by 1paniolo on Feb 22, 2012 3:22 PM CST reply actions  

This is what I was saying in a previous thread but very very specific

Trade our expiring contracts for picks/prospects so that we can have more things to trade for what we really need.

by Travis Drybread 2 on Feb 22, 2012 4:55 PM CST up reply actions  

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