2012 NHL Trade Deadline: Musings On Zach Parise
With the Dallas Stars still scrambling for playoff positioning, and their play over the next few weeks determining whether Nieuwendyk becomes a seller or a buyer at the trade deadline -- supposedly, many eyes are focused on the deadline as a time when the Stars might finally be able to make a splash. Tom Gaglardi has made it clear that the Stars must make the postseason this year and it's going to be interesting to see what he allows Nieuwendyk to pull off in order to try and make that happen.
The Stars, struggling the past few weeks without Jamie Benn and Mike Ribeiro, are now 10th in the West headed into the All-Star Game break and are three points behind Minnesota for the 8th spot. Technically, they no longer control their own destiny but with a busy schedule coming in February and plenty of conference games left to play, there's still a chance this team can fight their way into the postseason.
Last week, we discussed what sort of plan the Stars should approach the deadline with, saying that Nieuwendyk should be cautious and smart about the assets he might give up just to try and make a run at the postseason this year. After all, it's become obvious this is an average hockey team that needs to get younger over the next few years -- giving up prospects or young players just to try and make the playoffs this season isn't exactly the best plan for the future.
So we turn our attention to players that not only would help this team this season but also provide a boost for the future as well. That "splashy" player that would help put the Stars back on the map in Dallas and provide that star presence -- alongside Jamie Benn -- that this team desperately needs as it rebuilds.
For Dallas Stars fans, and for most around the NHL, that thought leads to just one name this season: Zach Parise.
Zach Parise, who turns 28 this summer as he potentially hits free agency for the first time in his career, is perhaps the biggest American hockey star in the NHL today. Along with his baudy career numbers, Parise was an Olympics hero and helped put American hockey back on the map with an incredible performance on the international stage.
All of this makes him the most interesting target in free agency this summer, if he doesn't re-sign with New Jersey. He's their current captain and is just a few years removed from a 94-point season, so it's incredible we are even having the conversation that he might be available. Because of the potential financial issues of the Devils heading into this summer, there's a thought that Parise might not only be available as a free agent -- he might be traded by the Devils for the right price.
We'll get to that potential price in a bit, but let's take a look at Parise as a player first. After all, it's not just the name the Stars -- or any other team -- would be acquiring, it's the actual future production that would result from the deal.
In Lou We Trust took a close look at Parise this season, compared to the previous four years in New Jersey, and it becomes clear that Parise's value is based on past production -- not what he's done lately. Parise's best seasons came between 2008-09 and 2009-10, when he was facing the toughest competition on his team while ranking as a top forward on the Devils as far as Corsi and point production go. It should also be noted that Parise played just 13 games last season due to injury and there's a chance his struggles at times this year have carried over from that.
This season, Parise has just 39 points in 45 games and is on pace for less than 30 goals. What's more, he's doing this against easier competition compared to the rest of his team. His shots per game are lower and his shot percentage is lower than it has ever been in his career, not counting last year's injury-shortened season.
Per John Fischer:
This is where the concern comes in: Parise isn't really pushing the play forward. The Patrik Elias line has been taking on the toughest competition this season, and Parise isn't going up against weak players. Relative to his team, he's not ranked too poorly. However, he's just above the even point in on-ice Corsi. His relative Corsi is also at a five-season low. For a player who wasn't just driving the play forward but steamrolling ahead and among his team's leaders in this stat, this is rather shocking. It suggests to me that Parise may not be performing as well this season compared to prior years. Sure, the points are one thing, but if on-ice Corsi is around zero, it means he's not consistently winning his match-ups or generating more opportunities than allowing. That's not good. Especially after what I thought was a good start on this front.
From 2007 through 2010, Parise was rolling through defenses alongside Travis Zajac and Jamie Langenbrunner. This season, he's been playing with a rookie center in Adam Henrique and Ilya Kovalchuk, who's never been much of a possession forward. And Parise experienced other linemates until Peter DeBoer settled on all three. One way to look at it is that because Henrique and Kovalchuk aren't great defensive and/or possession players like Zajac and Langenbrunner. It's not Parise's fault that his linemates can't do the same things ZZ Pops did with such success. That he's producing at all and not getting beaten on every night should be seen as a positive for Parise.
So, the question becomes whether Parise's overall performance has waned this season because of personal decline or whether it's because of the players around him. He's always been known as one of the better defensive forwards in the game, who can also score at an incredible rate, and this season he may be overcompensating defensively because of who he's playing with.
One thing is becoming clearer: Parise might not be a forward who is going to suddenly spark an offense by his presence alone. He's a key part of the big picture who is, like many players, reliable on those around him to help create space and create offensive chances. There's also the fact that this season Parise has more shorthanded points than power play points, as he's part of a struggling power play unit that's just as bad as the one here in Dallas.
Parise is an ultra-talented two-way forward with tremendous goal-scoring ability who is also known for his leadership in the locker room. He's also played on a team that has greatly disappointed in the postseason and has under performed at times compared to expectations.
So, what would a team get from Parise should they a) make a trade for him or b) wait until free agency? For one, Parise would certainly be one of the more dynamic forwards on that team, instantly, and should become a top line winger. They'd also receive a strong off-ice personality and incredible leader in the locker room, who would also be a big role-model for that team to market as the big name on the team. Combine that with his past production and his potential performance for the right team, and it's understandable why he's such a hot commodity.
Parise isn't perfect, however, and there's no guarantee he'd become the 90-point forward he was a few years back. There is certainly a risk for any move a team might make to acquire him, especially at the trade deadline.
What would he mean to the Dallas Stars, however, and would that risk be worth it?
Parise is almost exactly the sort of forward the Stars desperately need, especially in the marketing department. A charismatic forward who can put up big points, who's American and is a recognizable name around the NHL is something this team is needing in a bad way. Combine that with how dynamic the offense becomes with Parise, especially with Jamie Benn and Loui Eriksson still improving as players, and suddenly the Stars have a very, very strong foundation to build around.
Yet, the price to be paid to acquire Parise would be tremendous -- especially if the Devils are looking to trade him at the deadline and head into the rebuilding mode that many feel they should already have started. If the Devils do indeed decide to trade Parise, then the asking price in return would be so astronomical that any trade involving the Stars would certainly become much too expensive, making the idea of bringing him to Dallas this season likely impractical.
The Devils aren't going to want aging veterans or underperforming third line players. The Devils will want prospects and draft picks, likely involving Jack Campbell and a number of other top prospects, as well as young forwards already at the NHL level. While the Stars certainly have a number of prospects that could be used in such a trade, doing so for Parise this season is a risk not worth taking for a team with no certainty of making the playoffs.
There's also the fact that Parise is a pending free agent this summer, and any trade this season brings almost zero promises of signing him long term.
So, we turn our attention to free agency. There's a very real question of whether the Devils can afford to keep Parise, who says he hopes that New Jersey continues to spend to the cap to keep up with other NHL powerhouse teams.
"You hear about teams that, no matter what, they're not going to spend to the cap," Parise told the New York Post. "That's just the way they are. It's hard to be competitive if you're not going to, if you can't spend as much as these other teams. So if there's a change, you hope that part won't change, because we've always been a salary cap team."
Two things are obvious here. First, Parise is likely looking for a gigantic payday and a raise from his current $6 million salary this season. Second, any team he decides to sign with -- if not New Jersey -- is a team he expects to be able to compete and contend with the best in the NHL.
Even if the Stars were able to sign Parise, which they'll have room to do this summer, there's certainly little guarantee that he'd want to come to Dallas. He's been playing on a high-profile team that has at least been playoff contenders each season he's played. The Stars would offer no such promise, especially since Parise would be a key piece to building a better team for the future, not the final piece of the puzzle for a possible Cup contending team.
There's also the prevailing opinion that Parise would prefer to head back to his hometown Minnesota Wild, a place where he'd be welcomed with open arms as the returning hero -- there to bring back glory to Minnesota hockey. Parise would certainly be a high-profile player here in Dallas, but he would certainly receive much less attention in North Texas than he would in MInnesota.
So, what have we concluded? Parise is a good player who has been great in the past, whose presence on any team would instantly boost their offense -- but he won't be the perfect solution to all of their offensive woes. He's also a player that would be tremendously expensive in a trade with no guarantee of staying once he hits free agency, making the idea of a trade certainly seem toO expensive to be worth it.
Should the Dallas Stars focus on Parise, especially this summer? I'd expect nothing less from Joe Nieuwendyk and Tom Gaglardi and I certainly expect them to attempt to sign him to a big contract should he decide to leave New Jersey. Unfortunately, there's 29 other teams gearing up for the same approach, with Minnesota and Detroit already having a better chance at getting the star forward.
That doesn't mean the Dallas Stars shouldn't try, however.
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I have one issue with parise
he is not a center. he plays wing. he would be a great addition, and I would give up a lot for him including Campbell but we need to focus on a center. we want Benn to move back to wing and acquiring parise doesn’t allow that. can we pick up two marquee names? probably not. while I want parise, we should focus our efforts and money on a marquee center. unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be too many available.
by DStarsFan on Jan 25, 2012 9:45 AM CST via Android app reply actions
I tend to agree
Parise would be a great addition to the team… but we don’t need any more wingers – we have plenty. What we need are play making centers.
To illustrate the point – name all of the prospects that we have who play center. Now, how many of those names could be top flight (1st or 2nd line) centers? …Exactly.
Ribs isn’t getting any younger, and he’s going to need a replacement eventually… And Benn isn’t a center. Benn can play at center – and he can do a passable job… But that doesn’t change the fact that he’s a scoring winger.
I really think that Nieuwy needs to attempt a trade for a center (I’ve outlined my views here)
Carpe diem!
I dont agree
about the Benn moving back to wing comment. Benn is much more effective and dangerous at center. He has more freedom to puck hawk on the forecheck and backcheck. I would never want to limit his skills to one side of the ice.
by Starzfanatic on Jan 25, 2012 1:07 PM CST up reply actions
I don't understand how we don't need more top 6 wingers?
I know the top priorities are centers, and top d man, but take we need all the offensive depth we can get. Going into next year is Morrow going to be relatively consistent game to game? Is Steve Ott going to score or struggle with more and more responsibilites? Look at some guys we had playing top six last year in segal for stretches, and where they are now. I have no doubt we will see something similar next year. This team needs skill depth in the top 6, Zach is a solid player with both upside and bust potiental following some injuries. At the right price he is a great target, but with teams like LA looking to pay over the moon I don’t see it happening.
What...just...happened?
by RealDealNeal on Jan 25, 2012 5:27 PM CST up reply actions
i'll now spend my day at Cap Geek looking at the UFA list.
and it will sadden me to know that it’s nearly impossible for us to pull FA’s into Dallas. they just don’t seem to want to come here.
I don’t think Parise would come to Dallas unless we give him the highest offer and all the other offers are on non-competitive teams. Could we trade for him? of course. Would it be worth it? i don’t know.
Ryder is the sole FA we’ve signed in the past 5 seasons who’s been a top tier player and you could argue Ryder is borderline/doesn’t belong in that ‘top tier’ group.
So i turn the question to you, Brandon, why don’t Free Agents like coming to Dallas?
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by graylikethecolor on Jan 25, 2012 9:53 AM CST reply actions
How do you conclude that FA's don't like coming to Dallas...
When we haven’t had the opportunity to attempt to sign any top flight FAs for the past 3 seasons…
Carpe diem!
that's true, we haven't had a clear and present owner... but
while Hicks was still in control, name me some FA’s we signed. Guerin? Turgeon?
I totally agree that in this day and age, Grow From Within (especially when you’re in the Western Conference) is your best bet. still. I think you can’t make a serious playoff run without some extra pieces in Free Agency.
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by graylikethecolor on Jan 25, 2012 10:35 AM CST up reply actions
I think your forgetting someone.
Goes by the name of Brett Hull. You may remember him as the guy that scored the game winner to win the cup. If your going to make posts at least know what your talking about. I still remember the paper that day on the front the headline was ‘Hulls a Star’
well, i was originally talking post-Cup and then extended that to Hicks in general...
i’d clarify, but it’s becoming clearer to me as i think and re-think all of this:
post-Lockout, we had an aging team of Stars: 9/26/56. Throw in 35 and you’ve got some older dudes on the backend of the bell curve of their careers. add up those salaries and…….. that’s right: you CAN’T sign big FA’s because of cap space.
moving forward to the WCF run and that was it… the end of 9/26/56/35 as the CORE group… luckily for us, we stayed rather competitive during the ensuing period no one wants to call a rebuild (because it kinda was and kinda wasn’t).
i guess what i’m realizing is that NOW we have the deadly combination of Cap space and an owner willing to spend up to it….
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by graylikethecolor on Jan 25, 2012 11:16 PM CST up reply actions
Guerin, Turgeon, Hull, Belfour
Kept the core of Modano/Lehtinen/Zubov together
Made big offers to Jeremy Roenick, John LeClair, and a few others.
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Audette?
Which turned out not to be a good signing.
Audette wasn't on that level, but he still cost some scratch.
The Avery/Audette/Scott Young level is the next tier of player that he was willing to spend on.
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That statement is fairly misleading....
Think about the situations of the past few summers. Limited budgets and no ownership. The Stars were limited financially with what they could add as far as extra salary goes and had a number of vets on this team already taking up a good amount of the budget that existed.
So its not so much “free agents don’t want to come to Dallas” as its more “Dallas couldn’t afford free agents”.
When’s the last time you heard of the Stars going hard after a free agent, only to be not chosen over another team with similar offers? Hasn’t happened in a long time.
The have the ownership, they have to commitment to the future….so let’s allow Nieuwendyk to actually go through a summer with money before we make that judgment.
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by Brandon Worley on Jan 25, 2012 9:59 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
fair enough
Yes, we have been a cash-strapped, ownerless team for a while. And that won’t make ANYone want to sign on the dotted line. but i think my point is fairly on the mark: we haven’t had a single FA splash that’s on par with what other teams have signed. We’re not the East Coast. We’re not Canada. I just don’t get the feeling that we’re a destination that players are clamoring to dive into.
granted: we haven’t had solid ownership for a while, but before that… what, Guerin? am I missing anyone?
I don’t know what players the Stars have gone hard after only to be spurned by an equal or lesser offer. i don’t have that access. I guess I only see players and deals that only fell flat. I feel like the only additions we ever make are through trades.
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by graylikethecolor on Jan 25, 2012 10:32 AM CST up reply actions
i remember that angle. and if you've come from Toronto or Montreal,
then you’d love the anonymity of Dallas. I’ve read that, and heard that in interviews: how guys love that you can go places and not get mobbed.
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by graylikethecolor on Jan 25, 2012 10:37 AM CST up reply actions
If this were true
How did Florida sign so many players in free agency this past summer? Is Florida a “better destination” than Dallas?
I think you’re reading much too deep into something that has no bearing on the team this summer.
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by Brandon Worley on Jan 25, 2012 10:48 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
I'd rather live in Florida than Dallas.
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well...
Richards still has a house in Florida.
and he rented a condo in Dallas.
so I would say yes, Florida is a better destination than Dallas.
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by graylikethecolor on Jan 25, 2012 10:56 AM CST up reply actions
So, are we talking about the team or the area?
Because that’s different as well. I’d argue that Dallas is a good location, especially since so many players still live here after no longer playing here, in many sports.
I’ll wait until I have my computer to respond in full to what you’re getting at.
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by Brandon Worley on Jan 25, 2012 11:03 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
It is harder for sports franchises in FL to gain fan support.
Since so many people relocate to FL from other states for retirement or whatever reason and stay loyal to the teams from their home state.
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by RealDealNeal on Jan 25, 2012 5:32 PM CST up reply actions
Florida blows
rains every day and is so dang humid. Also, I don’t like beaches, although I’m obviously in the minority.
by StarzenheimerSchmidt on Jan 25, 2012 12:34 PM CST up reply actions
Ok, so here's my detailed response to your question.
I think it’s impossible to really judge whether players “want” to come to Dallas. You say you can’t find the last time the Stars signed a “big name free agent”, and I’d respond by saying that when the Stars COULD, they either a) didn’t need to sign those big names or b) signed the wrong free agents.
Bill Guerin was certainly the last really big free agent that was signed. Before that, however, the Stars had signed players like Ed Belfour and Brett Hull in free agency. So, why did they want to come to Dallas then? Because Dallas was building a contender and willing to spend a lot of money to do so. Even then, most of that Cup winning team was built through trade and supplemented with certain additions via free agency.
That’s been the m.o. for the Stars over the years. Make the trades, give away assets, and only make free agent signings when necessary. Free Agency is insanely expensive and you end up overpaying more likely than not — that’s the risk you run into trying to play that game. Look at Buffalo.
So what about lately? Well, I’d contend that now that the Stars actually have the need to add players via free agency — they lost the ability to do so. The financial flexibility to actually add significant salary has not only hampered the team’s ability to sign free agents, but to do also make significant trades as well.
So, my counter to your point is that we actually have no way of knowing whether players “don’t want to come here” because we have little to no real data to base that assumption on.
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by Brandon Worley on Jan 25, 2012 11:32 AM CST up reply actions
also
you could add in the CBA prior to and after the Lock Out. It definitely shapes how teams can add players.
but all your points are valid. thanks for responding in full. I agree the timing of our ability or need to add has been terrible: when we needed it, we can’t. when we can, we haven’t landed any quality. (plus, there’s the Hull/Jackson experiment… we don’t have to go there).
PLUS, there’s the argument of year-to-year the quality of FA’s changes. Some years there are a lot of quality players in flux. Some years, not so much.
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by graylikethecolor on Jan 25, 2012 11:40 AM CST up reply actions
This coming summer is bad, bad, bad for free agents.
And one just went off the market. John Michael-Liles extended four years by Toronto.
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by Brandon Worley on Jan 25, 2012 11:43 AM CST up reply actions
dammit.
i had him and Matt Carle on my list i made this AM.
back to the drawing board…
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by graylikethecolor on Jan 25, 2012 11:48 AM CST up reply actions
I wouldn't have wanted either
as they are more small guys just like Goligoski, Larsen, Daley, Robidas. That contract looks a lot better than Goose’s. :-/
by StarzenheimerSchmidt on Jan 25, 2012 12:38 PM CST up reply actions
Liles is taking a smaller contract.
His contract before this one is more comoarable, its about the same AAV and came at a similar age to what Goligoski is now. Liles is 31 now, so the comparison is a bit tough.
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by Brandon Worley on Jan 25, 2012 1:00 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
Liles...
….why would you want another little guy with Goose, Daley, and Larsen already in the system? BTW, he is concussed right now and on IR.
by Dallas_Stars74 on Jan 25, 2012 12:44 PM CST up reply actions
I agree...
…Well put. Although this is conjecture, I’d have to say that it’s obvious UFAs will gravitate towards winners/contenders or those who overpay them. I hope we don’t have to ‘Buffalo’ anyone this UFA season.
by Dallas_Stars74 on Jan 25, 2012 12:42 PM CST up reply actions
We really need a top center
but finding one in free agency is going to be almost impossible this summer.
Looking at the list this summer, there are a few wingers out there, such as Parise, and Semin that i wouldnt mind.
I really think getting a #1 center is priority over evertything tho, even if we have a shot at Parise, i would rather pursue a center. Obviously this is why Richards was so sought after last summer as its rare a player of that quality becomes available on the free market. A trade is the only way i can see getting a center at the moment
i wouldnt trade for Parise
It would cost too much to trade for him right now with no guarantee he will be around very long. I would definitely make him an offer during the offseason but nothing too crazy. Since I doubt he ends up in Dallas I do hope he ends up with the Wild.
We should trade Morrow and Pardy for Parise.
Why hasn’t Joe done that yet?
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Dowell Peterson Wandell Woywitka Hogue Audette Modano and Barch
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by StarzenheimerSchmidt on Jan 25, 2012 10:24 AM CST via Android app up reply actions
Because...
…they want Modano. They heard we signed him to a $999,999.99999 deal which they think is a steal.
by Dallas_Stars74 on Jan 25, 2012 12:46 PM CST up reply actions
With the devils competing for a playoff spot of their own
I wonder if they will actually trade Parise at the deadline. I doubt it, unless they get a hell of a deal. Otherwise, I’d expect his rights to be traded.
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I'm thinking they don't.
It seems to be a very similar situation to where we were with Richards last year. They most likely cannot resign him, but they’re in playoff contention. I think they’ll keep him and make that playoff push and risk losing him for nothing in July.
Just like we did with Richards.
Players available for Stars before trade deadline.
I wonder if you could (I know this is a lot of work for you) maybe have a daily “who should we trade for” musing for us until the trade deadline passes? I love all the info you gave us on Parise.
On the topic of centers...
Who do we have in the system coming up that is a true C? I was thinking Glennie has been moved to C sorta like Benn but I wasn’t sure. All of the high profile prospects I’m thinking of are either wingers or d men. If this is the case something will need to be done over the next few years- either via a trade or FA signing or drafting an NHL ready top 6 C.
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They don’t draft centers high for some season.
Top two round centers since 2000
2009 – 1st Scott Glennie is now a center, but was drafted as a winger
2007 – 2nd Nico Sacchetti
2000 – 1st Steve Ott
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Three*
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The Texas Stars roster lists
Tousignant, Morin, Garbutt, Esposito, and Connolly as centers
"The Dallas Cowboys announced they have released Jerry Jones."
If any of those guys makes it to the NHL
Then they’re pretty much going to be 3rd/4th line guys…
Carpe diem!
They're insignificant.
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Too risky
Knowing new ownership wants to make the playoffs at all costs is nice, but losing too much talent just isn’t worth it. Getting Parise is possible but signing him before free agency would be difficult. The best bet is to compete with the rest of the teams this Summer, that way we keep Campbell, Fraser, etc. If we lose out on Parise then Shea Weber would be the number one priority.
by darksidecowboy on Jan 25, 2012 10:53 AM CST reply actions
Don't forget though that Weber will be an RFA, so Nashville retains his rights.
You might be able to get him, but it would be easier to get Suter. (And no, Suter has NOT extended with the preds yet.)
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Suter also doesn't carry as much hype
Or name recognition with him. So, I would agree – it might be easier to get a guy like Suter…
Carpe diem!
Suter should be
- on the Stars list. Not splashy name of Parise but a bigger need. The Stars have some good forwards. They have no #1 defensemen laying around or any decent ways to get them in the foreseeable future.
by StarzenheimerSchmidt on Jan 25, 2012 12:40 PM CST up reply actions
I kinda like this approach.
There is a #1 D out there where there really isn’t a #1 center. (our two biggest needs). Get that #1D and we have extra NHL level D and good prospects that could be packaged to go after a #1 center. Is it too early to start talking about the 2013 FA class? lol
Nashville is working on deal for Suter
it also sounds like they won’t attempt to keep a high priced Weber. Heard it on NHL XM station
by darksidecowboy on Jan 26, 2012 4:43 PM CST up reply actions
We all discussed Paul Stastny in the trade deadline targets thread.
Assuming he can be had, how much do you think Colorado would want for him?
by Travis Drybread on Jan 25, 2012 11:15 AM CST reply actions
Not just Stastny
But other guys like Derek Roy, Derick Brassard, and Patrik Berglund.
The point in discussing players like those is that they MAY be available and the Stars may have the assets to complete a trade for one of them…
Carpe diem!
No trades for picks please
Joe needs to find a gem in the draft, if possible.
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There's also the very real possibility (and better scenario)
That the Stars trade the older guys and some defensemen for future assets, although we shouldn’t expect much in return.
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by Brandon Worley on Jan 25, 2012 11:34 AM CST reply actions
But then who would play?
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Certainly not Fraser or Vincour.
They can only play 4 mins a game.
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by Brandon Worley on Jan 25, 2012 11:40 AM CST up reply actions
Moar Burish
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Kane?
What about Evander Kane? He’s a young top-six center who is pushing a 40-goal pace. There was talk about him wanting out of Winnapeg, and he’s had struggles there, so maybe he could be had. I don’t want a locker room cancer, but maybe it’s the fishbowl life of high-pressure Winnapeg that’s getting to him, and the lower-key market of Dallas would let him flourish. Or am I just rambling?
I wouldn't mind us looking into getting him.
He’d certainly fit the youth movement idea.
by Travis Drybread on Jan 25, 2012 11:51 AM CST up reply actions
Evander Kane would be interesting.
He’s a RFA, however, so you’d better be prepared to give up the compensation it would take to sign him away from the Jets.
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by Brandon Worley on Jan 25, 2012 11:52 AM CST up reply actions
Didn't think
he was a center. Winger.
by StarzenheimerSchmidt on Jan 25, 2012 12:41 PM CST up reply actions
The Stars aren't going to trade for any of these guys.
They don’t have the pieces to get a good young player, and if they did they aren’t in a position to move them.
The only one that fits that mold (kind of) is Alex Goligoski, and they moved James Neal to get him. Core for core. It isn’t happening.
Just trade the vets.
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Yup.
Pretty much sums it up.
Even if the Stars did have the pieces, it wouldn’t be worth it in a trade because it would do little to help the team now, versus for the future.
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by Brandon Worley on Jan 25, 2012 12:00 PM CST up reply actions
The Dallas Stars need a scoring winger. \
Desperately. I understand the lack of depth at center, but what options exist at center right now?
There aren’t many, especially not in free agency. So a player like Parise would do wonders for this team at the top-six level. Would he fill all holes? Nope.
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by Brandon Worley on Jan 25, 2012 11:54 AM CST reply actions
I agree to a certain extent
But, if a center of #1 or #2 potential is gettable, via trade or free agency, we should do all we can to get them. Parise would be great, and im a massive fan of his, but right now a center, and then maybe a #1 defenseman are on my list above a scoring winger. (not that my list means anything) :-)
by Matt Wright on Jan 25, 2012 12:02 PM CST up reply actions
I think the point has been to move Benn back to LW
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I would move
him back to wing, not that he has done anything wrong, but i think he can more productive there
by Matt Wright on Jan 25, 2012 12:14 PM CST up reply actions
In a best case scenario, yes.
But I’ll wait until the Stars acquire another top six center to even think about that.
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by Brandon Worley on Jan 25, 2012 12:14 PM CST up reply actions
If you're going to aim for Parise, you might as well aim for a top 6 center with the idea of moving Benn back.
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Certainly there has to be ONE Ribeiro for Niiniimaa-esque deal out there that we can make.
Teams can be swindled.
by Travis Drybread on Jan 25, 2012 12:22 PM CST up reply actions
I'm really thinking
That Derek Roy could be had in a Niinimaa type deal…
Buffalo is struggling, Roy is having a down year…
Carpe diem!
Right.
So…where should the aim fall? Because there aren’t many centers that will be available this summer. Should the Stars target Krejci in a trade and then hope for Parise? Should Parise not be a target at all if a center can’t be added?
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by Brandon Worley on Jan 25, 2012 12:23 PM CST up reply actions
They should identify the core of the team.
If Benn is identified as a core player (and he will be) then you try to fit him in with the other core pieces you have.
Since that core is basically Benn and Eriksson up front you can do a lot of things. I’m not against Parise, but I also don’t really know if the Stars have a coherent plan. I don’t think they have since the financial chaos set in. They had a green GM take over with oversight that basically said “try to make the playoffs, don’t risk hurting our financial situation AT ALL, and don’t spend any money”. That isn’t a plan.
This is Gaglardi’s team now. They haven’t made any public indication about where they’re going/what the plan is, but he’s a successful businessman. There is little doubt he has a vision for how things need to go. He’s said this is all about winning because “he makes his money elsewhere”, and that he “knows what needs to be done but doesn’t know how to do it yet”. His statements sound like a rebuild to me, but who knows.
If you’re rebuilding then giving Parise $Texas doesn’t make sense. You have to manage the cap in the current NHL. When you don’t have an established core adding a max player doesn’t make much sense to me. It isn’t like they’re one player away. They need a top line player, an entire second line, and a few defensemen. I don’t think pursuing Parise is realistic given where they are.
He is good though.
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I think you need to expand the core a little bit...
They need a top line player, an entire second line, and a few defensemen.
I fully agree that they need a top line player – that bit is unmistakable. I would say a top line center… Then you could ice Benn-Center-Someone or Eriksson-Center-Someone… or you could go whole hog and ice Benn-Center-Eriksson. If that’s the case, then the top line is “established” and we can move to the second line. We already have a pretty decent second line in Morrow-Ribs-Ott/Ryder. Ribs should be productive for a few more seasons, which should be good enough to hold us over until (A) Glennie miraculously makes a successful jump to the NHL and proves to be a viable 2nd line center, (B) we draft an NHL ready center before Ribs is done, or, © some other heretofore unmentioned method of acquiring a 2nd line center. I would content that we have plenty of wingers down on the farm who should be/are capable of playing 2nd line minutes. And just like option (B) above, we could always wind up drafting more wingers.
I have no argument with the need for a good 1/2 dman – those are in short supply and don’t grow on trees. I would have loved Ballard… or Michalek… or Martin… As completely unrealistic as it may be, I would love for Nieuwy to find a way to pry Alzner or Carlson from Washington (preferably Alzner) or Erik Karlsson from Ottawa…
Carpe diem!
I remember
Karlsson being horrible defensively in the game here but maybe he had a really bad game. Vancouver really wants to get rid of Ballard, and Pittsburg really is hating on Martin this year. So they aren’t highly though of right now. Alzner, Carlson, Suter…now those would be nice.
by StarzenheimerSchmidt on Jan 25, 2012 1:35 PM CST up reply actions
The second line has been absolutely terrible this year, and they're getting old.
Ott is probably a third liner. That isn’t a core piece.
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I disagree
When I conceive a core group, I want offense leaders (Eriksson, Benn), defensive leaders (Goose), and someone who is going to lead the team emotionally – I think Ott fits that perfectly. Is he the most skilled guy? Nope. But he wears his heart on his sleeve and leaves everything on the ice – every game.
Carpe diem!
So since he's the emotional leader he's naturally at fault when they have absolutely no energy then, no?
And if so, why do you want that around long term?
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It's a trap
But I’ll play along…
So since he’s the emotional leader he’s naturally at fault when they have absolutely no energy then, no?
I suppose that argument could be made… But in doing so, you completely remove the human element from the players. There are two issues with the way you’ve constructed your argument: (1) It’s too binary – humans aren’t always able to maintain an expected or needed physical or emotional output. They’re humans, not robots. (2) It removes the responsibility from the other 19 players on the ice to self-motivate. It’s a little rash to assume the sum total of “give a crap” on the ice should be produced by one player.
The reason you want someone like Ott around is that by his emotional outbursts, he helps to hold the other players accountable for providing their share of on ice “give a crap”.
Carpe diem!
It isn't a trap.
You’re valuing him by saying he’s an emotional leader of a team that has energy problems. Is he a locker room guy? No doubt, but what does that contribute to the win column? Very little. He’s a defensive minded third line center who can take faceoffs. That’s a useful trade piece, but a luxury for a poor team.
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a luxury we can't afford to be without.
Ott’s not going anywhere.
by Travis Drybread on Jan 25, 2012 2:38 PM CST up reply actions
He might not be moving anywhere, but I don't see why they can't afford to move him.
He isn’t critical to the future success of the franchise.
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but what does that contribute to the win column?
Quite a lot actually. As a counter-example: what happened to the Stars last year when Burish went down with his ankle/foot injury? He and Ott are of the same mold… The emotional player/spark plug/energy guy/other unused euphemism is just as important to the overall chemistry of the team. Just because you can’t empirically measure it doesn’t mean it should be discounted ;)
However, if you wanted to argue that the Stars could stand to lose someone like Ott or Burish or other similar player (Dowell?), then I would agree. They aren’t Pokemon – we don’t need to catch them all.
Carpe diem!
The Burish situation is coincidental.
The Stars are tanking without Benn too, but we’re not about to compare Benn to Burish. They stunk without Richards last year, but you’re not comparing Richards to Burish.
Ott is much better than Dowell or Burish, but it has nothing to do with some notion of chemistry. It’s because he is a solid defensive forward that can take faceoffs at a high clip.
Chemistry is being misused here. Chemistry, in the hockey sense, is on ice communication. It’s being able to work with the guys you’re on the ice with to create positive results. The Stars as a team have terrible chemistry.
The sense you’re referring to, I think, is in the locker room. AKA intangibles. If you have a choice you want guys that get along perfectly, but I’ll take a dickhead that scores 30 a year over a 15 goal scoring perfect humanitarian. If you’re saying that Ott;s value is from some emotional high that is generated from hits/fights I would disagree for two reasons. For one, the impact is overstated. Secondly, he’s been so inconsistent in his physical game over the past three years that any impact is probably overstated again.
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This guy just isn't making any sense.
Aren’t people from defending big D supposed to know what they are talking about. Lehtonen, Benn, Goligoski and eriksson are a perfect core to form around. Guys like Ott and Burish can be included as well. You cant win without those depth guys that work hard every night. Chicago proved that when they had to lose all their depth guys after winning the cup. We arent that many pieces away from being a successful franchise again
I don't think they're saying we don't need those TYPES of players
they’re saying we don’t need THOSE types of players.
as in: 3rd/4th liners are bountiful and willing to do their dirty work while 1st/2nd liners are GOLD and should be built around.
if you find yourself including Ott in a Core scenario, well, you have problems.
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by graylikethecolor on Jan 25, 2012 4:37 PM CST up reply actions
Steve Ott is a good compliment to any team.
He is not a “core player” you build a team around.
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by Brandon Worley on Jan 25, 2012 5:31 PM CST up reply actions
You can't win without depth guys
but you can find depth guys much easier than you can find a Jamie Benn. The Stars acquired almost an entire bottom 6 forward group in free agency for little money. Ideally you want stability, but you can very easily find those guys when you need to. Burish, who barely plays, is definitely not a core piece.
I’m not advocating that Steve Ott should be dumped for a bag of pucks, but he isn’t Benn. He isn’t Eriksson. You can find guys to fill his role. Max Talbot, for instance, got 1.9 mil as a FA for 5 years. Fiddler got 1.8. Jeff Halpern wasn’t expensive. He can be replaced.
As far as Goligoski goes…if I’m not his biggest supporter here I’m at least in the running. The discussion was about forwards.
And Kari shouldn’t be a core piece. He’s a slightly above average goalie. Unless you have a Brodeur/Hasek type you probably shouldn’t commit long term big money to a goalie since their performance can fluctuace so wildly. See Bryzgalov, Ilya.
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Fair enough.
But I would not be opposed to trading Ott pending on the return. Players who we should keep and build around are Benn and Eriksson up front and Daley, Larsen, and Gosse on the back end. I think if you somehow acquire a #1 d-man then the back end would be solid enough to compete; Sutter would be ideal but high cost.
The forwards seem to be the biggest issue. Morrow should not be playing 2nd line minutes and Ribs is an ‘OK’ option as a #2 center for another year or so. Then you have Ryder who is decent scorer but isn’t probably the caliber of player you win with on the second line. You still need a top line player to either center Benn and Eriksson or to provide a 1-2 combo with Benn.
This team needs 2 top 6 six forwards and a true #1 d-man with size to make us a perennial playoff team.
I'm fine with Ribeiro, but he isn't being put in a position to succeed.
He’s an offense first center being used in tough defensive minutes (intentionally or inadvertently…Im not sure). He probably isn’t a core type for this group due to age. They’ve hinted that they’re building for the future in the past, and if so the window for competing will probably open when he’s out of his prime.
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Agreed.
As stated above the players who I view as keepers are Benn, Eriksson, Daley, Larsen, and Goose. Possibly Jamie Oleksiak but he is still a prospect and I am not against trading him for the right player.
A third line of consisting of Morrow – Ott – RW (someone like Nystrom) would be ideal for winning now but we don’t have the pieces to replace them in the top 6.
I just hope Joe doesn’t sit with the current team and miss the playoffs. We either need to make an addition (doesn’t need to be a superstar) or trade off some aging assets if possible.
Not saying we won't make the playoffs.
But this team will be fighting tooth and nail.
Keep the Farm in tact..
General Joe has tons of cap room and we have a decent farm. I don’t like the idea of prospects going somewhere else at all. Mabs we throw in career AHLers and some vets, but before we got an owner, General Joe was making savvy moves with a limited budget. I say keep that in place and throw down some bucks on a 1st rounder, but quick fixes will bleed the club. If we don’t make the playoffs (I hope we do!) then so be it, but I don’t like the idea of betting the farm (pun intended! haha) on one pricey guy that will or will not pan out. Go Stars!
After reading Brandon's post and all the comments
I think the best move is for the Stars to wait till FA starts to make a move for him. I really liked the ideas thrown out in a different thread about Roy and Stastny. I think if the Stars are going to bring in a significant name during the season, it’ll more likely be someone like them.
Roy is an interesting name.
He’s struggling, struggling, struggling right now in Buffalo. Really having an underwhelming season. Same with Statsny in Colorado.
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by Brandon Worley on Jan 25, 2012 12:27 PM CST up reply actions
Ya that's the issue with them right now
But, they’ve proven to be good players in the league before. The whole Buffalo thing is a mess. I have no insight on the Sabres organization, but maybe they need to trade a significant player like Roy to show the guys in the locker room that they are serious.
I can foresee many great things with statsny in a stars sweater...
one can dream, right. I don’t think we will pull the trigger on a big name until FA.
I think Roy is the best target due to his contract.
Statsny has a higher cap hit, although not a terrible one. A guy like Staal in Carolina is having a bad year but his contract is too huge for my liking (7.5m/per – correct me if I am wrong) and his availability is questionable; although they do have Skinner and Sutter still. The other Staal in Pitt would be nice but his value would still be too high even though he has injury issues and the Pens need him without any guarantee from Crosby playing again. Does not seem to be a lot of good options right now with regards to a center although that could change as we get closer to the trade deadline.
I think my wish list of guys to aquire would be:
1. E. Kane
2. D. Roy
3. P. Statsny
4. Z. Parise
#1 Suter
2. Roy
3. Stastny
4. Parise
Roy over Stastny only because of the contracts
People keep saying those two names but nobody suggests how to get them. I can’t see what they’d want that we are willing to give. Maybe Buffalo would want something around Morrow since they are in “win now” mode unlike others who don’t want an aging vet. But what would Colorado want? I don’t think they want to be adding fading vets to their young group.
by StarzenheimerSchmidt on Jan 25, 2012 12:46 PM CST up reply actions
Good point
Let’s just put the fact that an S-storm is going through Buffalo right now. What would they want? Probably a gritty power forward or a veteran defense man. With that said the Stars could deal them Robidas, Maybe Grossman as a rental if they can make a playoff push, or Morrow (if he waives his NTC).
Here’s a link to the Sabres current line combination: http://www.fantasyhockey911.com/line-combinations/buffalo-sabres/2012-01-24
I think that if they are going to land Roy straight up it’ll involve Robi or Morrow with a 2nd or 3rd. If they try to land Roy and a pick they might throw in Grossman for a 3rd.
But why would Robidas or Morrow waive their NTCs to go to Buffalo?
I only see them willing to go to a contender, and a contender isn’t going to deal any good pieces back to the Stars in return.
Please don't introduce logic.
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It also behooves logic...
…to insinuate Buffalo will need a rental for a playoff push when it looks unlikely that they can realistically grab a playoff spot. Assuming that 90+ points is a safe bet, Buffalo (45 pts) needs to win 20-22 of their next 33 games, with a few OTL’s to get to the ‘safe zone.’
by Dallas_Stars74 on Jan 25, 2012 1:43 PM CST up reply actions
Either way
It’s a moot point. Devils just traded for Ponikarovsky (sp?) from the Hurricanes. Seems to me like they’re making a playoff push. I’d love to get Parise, but it seems like the entry draft is the earliest that we could get him.
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by Virginian Star on Jan 25, 2012 12:37 PM CST reply actions
Would be
a huge mistake to trade for him before the deadline anyway. You probably end up getting him for 20 something games, miss the playoffs, lose prospects, roster player, draft picks. Then lose Parise in FA. That would get a GM fired. You acquire a guy like that during the season if you are ALREADY almost a lock to make the playoffs.
by StarzenheimerSchmidt on Jan 25, 2012 12:48 PM CST up reply actions
Suter is and has been a moot point, but that doesn't stop anyone from talking about him.
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better than talking about weber.
And I wouldn’t ever want to trade for Suter. I’d go after him in FA, but that’s it.
"He punched the highlights out of her hair.... He punched the HIGHLIGHTS out of her hair!!!" -- Young Neil
I agree it wouldnt be beneficial to trade for parise
I feel like next year modano will be working in the front office for us and I think it would be interesting if maybe modano speaking to parise could have a bit of an effect on him. Greatest American born ever could be really intriguing for Parise. I highly doubt Joe would include Campbell in any deals as he often states how he thinks Campbell will be a franchise player. Biggest needs for me would be
1) A shutdown defenceman. I like the idea of Weber but obviously Suter would be easier to get and that would be unreal as well.
2) A playmaking centre like Roy would be very nice
3) Parise in free agency
4) a big forward with lots of size. Someone like Gaustad who adds to our hard to play against mentality
Imagining the Stars having all that next year is a great thought.
by Travis Drybread on Jan 25, 2012 1:05 PM CST up reply actions
It actually wouldn't be
impossible to do all of that by next season. But everything would have to fall into place perfectly. Suter is just a matter of whether you can convince him to sign..Not easy but hey it’s not impossible by any means.
Trading for a guy like Roy isn’t impossible. There’s also a guy like Grabovski who’ll be a UFA. He scores goals but not really a set up man.
Parise same as Suter, but not sure even the Stars can afford both and extend Benn, etc. So if you could get Suter I’d rather go for a guy like Ruutu who might be about half the cap hit. Or if you get a center and move Benn to wing they’re mostly set in the top six, if not maybe a Vincour or Fraser becomes ready.
Might be able to get a guy like Josh Bailey for not much..worst case he ends up a good third line center and while he apparently lacks confidence scoring he’s good defensively.
by StarzenheimerSchmidt on Jan 25, 2012 1:43 PM CST up reply actions
Oh, I know it can definitely be done.
Not all at once, obviously, but piece by piece, that scenario is feasible.
Snag Roy or Stastny through trade this season, and take care of the rest in the offseason.
by Travis Drybread on Jan 25, 2012 1:51 PM CST up reply actions
To be honest, I doubt the Devils are trading for a goalie. If the Devils did trade Parise to the Stars, I’d probably be hoping for Glennie and a 1st rounder coming back rather than a goalie. I’d much rather stick with the safety of a decent forward prospect and a pick over a goalie prospect like Campbell, who could either be the next Brodeur or the next Cloutier/Toskala.
But then again, I’m not Lou.
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by Kevin Sellathamby on Jan 25, 2012 1:11 PM CST reply actions
I can't imagine Lou wanting Glennie
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I don't understand this sentiment...
We may not assign any value to Glennie, but that doesn’t mean that actual GMs have no value for him either. Has he lived up to his draft position? We don’t know yet.
And just to provide some perspective: Bobby Ryan was drafted 2nd overall in 2005. His rookie season was 2008/9 – despite playing a few games in 07/08. Anze Kopitar and Jack Johnson had their rookie seasons in 06/07…
By apparent standards, Ryan would have had no value in a trade…
Carpe diem!
Glennie
does get a bad rap around here. He was good in juniors. This season coming in as a ROOKIE he has a concussion and not much camp/practice time and somehow people are disappointed he didn’t light the world on fire as soon as he started playing? He is doing well right now..we’ll see if he can keep it up consistently.
by StarzenheimerSchmidt on Jan 25, 2012 1:45 PM CST up reply actions
A lot of it is tied to the fact thst
Stars fans haven’t seen Glennie at all, ever. He’s always injured during camp.
I agree, he gets a lot of bad rap around Stars fans.
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by Brandon Worley on Jan 25, 2012 1:48 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
so you think that Glennie and a 1st round pick would be valuable enough to get the deal done?
"He punched the highlights out of her hair.... He punched the HIGHLIGHTS out of her hair!!!" -- Young Neil
I'd make that deal in a heartbeat
No questions asked.
"If the laws of physics no longer apply in the future, God help you."
by Virginian Star on Jan 25, 2012 2:54 PM CST up reply actions
You'd trade a top 10-12 pick for a soon to be UFA?
Why?
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No way.
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by Brandon Worley on Jan 25, 2012 3:00 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
I know
And I’ll admit – I participate in the Glennie bashing myself… The most concerning thing to me is his never having participated in a Stars training camp – he always seems to be injured or have tweaked something. If there’s one thing I’m afraid of – it’s that he’s soft. And if he’s soft, that means that he’s not going to work as hard (IMHO) as some of the other guys… Would I have rather have had Cowen or Kassian in the 09 Draft… probably. But it remains to be seen how Glennie will fit in with the Dallas Stars as his career progresses.
Carpe diem!
Injury prone
and soft aren’t the same thing at all. And he wasn’t injury prone in juniors. Him being hurt in camps is probably coincidental.
by StarzenheimerSchmidt on Jan 25, 2012 4:50 PM CST up reply actions
You're correct
They’re not the same thing. Let me preface this by saying that I do not know the cause of Glennie’s injuries over the course of his career…
Now, having said that – if a player is repeatedly injured while playing, said player could become a little neurotic… Said player may attempt to avoid contact or hard nosed play based on injury experience. In short, I really hope that Glennie doesn’t catch (or hasn’t caught) what I will refer to as “Brunnström’s Syndrome”.
Carpe diem!
cue Jussi Jokinen
opponents knew (and still know) if you can get to him early, he’s not the same the rest of the game.
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by graylikethecolor on Jan 25, 2012 5:09 PM CST up reply actions
When was Brunnström really injured?
He was just soft.
You're assuming that I care that Glennie isn't in the NHL yet.
I don’t. He’s, by virtually all accounts, as soft player with makeup issues. He isn’t exactly lighting up the AHL either. That’s not a good combo. It isn’t just people around here saying these things. I don’t know of a single prospect follower that thinks much of him.
Defending Big D Check it out
Twitter
"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011
Look up Ryan's OHL and AHL numbers...
For the moment, Ryan’s AHL numbers are superior (he was at a point per game). But Ryan’s and Glennie’s OHL numbers are pretty darned close…
The overall point that I am trying to make is this: we shouldn’t fall to a short-sighted “what have you done for me lately” mentality. The rest of the NHL may have a myopic view – but that doesn’t mean we need to fall prey to it too. How many GMs were lining up to trade for Kari? How many GMs were willing to part with a top forward for Goose?
Carpe diem!
I don't need to look up Ryan's minor league numbers to comment on the specific issues talent people have said about Scott Glennie.
The consensus among those that cover minor league hockey/prospect professionally is that he has the issues I stated above. He can have all the talent in the world, but if he has the issues people feel he has he won’t turn into anything.
Defending Big D Check it out
Twitter
"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011
And none of us could imagine Lou
Wanting Kovalchuk… Kovalchuk isn’t exactly the play-doh that Lemaire liked to play with…
Carpe diem!
I mentioned him specifically because 1) He’s a RW and 2) he’s an offensive prospect. The Devils don’t exactly have either. The first rounder is part of the deal regardless. I’m guessing there’s probably going to be other draft picks involved.
Also, I’m not too familiar w/ the Stars prospects outside of Glennie, Oleksiak and Campbell.
Hell on Ice/In Lou We Trust/Twitter
Everyone has more goals than Scott Gomez
by Kevin Sellathamby on Jan 25, 2012 1:27 PM CST up reply actions
I saw Glennie last Friday
and he looked better than I anticipated. He started this first season horribly, but he seems to have figured out the AHL and has been very productive of late. Nice skater, good vision, moved the puck quickly and accurately, and always had his skates moving. I don’t see him as top line player, but a probable 2nd line player.
so toronto extended liles today
they will probably be making some moves between now and the deadline and while some of us were hoping for having a shot at liles in free agency the leafs have other defensemen that make more sense for us. Kieth Aulie and Cody Franson have both played at the NHL level and are thought to have some upside. there is no room for them in toronto but im not sure what the leafs would want in return
Keep the picks, a guy like Seth Jones might fall.
And by god Joe you better pick him up…
What...just...happened?
I like the idea of getting...
Evander Kane. I was high on him in the draft that year, but obviously it didn’t come to fruition for us. I agree though- an RFA would be an expensive acquisition.
I really think that the idea of getting a guy like Suter or JM- LIles, who is now signed to an extension (a player like that I mean) is a bad idea. I think Dallas needs a 2-way defenseman, as opposed to a pp QB/offensive type. Someone who can contribute offensively is fine, but I’d like someone who can hit. Fistric can, but he’s lousy overall. Nemeth, Oleksiak, Vance and Dillon have potential to be physical defensemen for Dallas down the road- should they make the NHL. But that won’t be for another year or more.

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