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Rebuilding The Dallas Stars Crumbling Defensive Infrastructure

[Editor's Note: Please welcome Josh Lile to the Defending Big D team. You may have noticed some of Josh's excellent FanPosts recently and he's stood out as one of the top members of this community for a while now. Josh is going to bring us some interesting statistical analysis this season, along with introducing a very intriguing statistics project that is encompassing many teams and many websites. For now, here's his take on the defensive system of the team]

The road that took the Stars from perennial Pacific Division title contenders to hoping for a playoff berth is littered with theories and crumpled up blueprints attempting to describe exactly how the Stars got from point A to point B. Scapegoats have included Sean Avery, the decline of Marty Turco, injuries, Marc Crawford, the young defense, bad luck, ownership, etc., etc., etc.

Some of these excuses are more valid than others (Sean Avery’s 23 games as a Star didn’t derail 3 seasons), but whenever a team falls as hard as the Stars did there are bound to be numerous reasons for that fall.

I don’t think the forward defense gets enough credit, and I’m going to use Point Shares to show you exactly what I mean.

Star-divide

 [A quick aside about Point Shares: Point Shares is a system developed by Jason Kubatko for Hockey-Reference.com. If you’re familiar with Win Shares in baseball then this will be a fairly easy concept to wrap your arms around. The idea behind the system is to try to approximate how many points (not just goals and assists, but an attempt at a total calculation of goals produced vs goals saved) in the standings Player A contributes to the points Team X compiles over the course of the season. One point share is equivalent to one point whereas in Bill James’ baseball system 3 Win Shares is equivalent to 1 win. If you would like to see the math behind the system, Click here]

 Whenever the Stars problems over the past three seasons have been addressed by fans the focus immediately goes to the defense, and it should. The Stars went from 207 goals against in 2008 up to a whopping 257 goals against in 2009. The defense hasn't been very good for three years now, but that doesn't necessarily mean the defensemen. They have taken a beating in public opinion over the course of the past three seasons.

 

Stephane Robidas, Trevor Daley, Matt Niskanen, Nicklas Grossman, and Mark Fistric in particular were blamed for how many chances the opposition got on net. It’s true that Niskanen hit a wall, and that Fistric has been up and down, but the other guys have been just fine over that time defensively despite the losses of Sergei Zubov, Mattias Norstrom, and Philippe Boucher. Daley, Grossman, and Robidas have been about as consistent a trio of defensemen as you could ask for over the past three years.

 

Defensive Point Shares
Name 2009 2010 2011
Robidas 4.5 3 3.5
Grossman 2.4 2.3 2.8
Daley 3.6 3.5 4.4

 

The forward group is the area I would like to highlight. They took numerous substantial defensive losses that were never addressed as a symptom of the worsening financial situation and few premium draft picks due to the Ladislav Nagy and Norstrom trades. Keep in mind that those kids they would have drafted would be Jamie Benn's age at this point, and pushing for significant playing time. They wouldn’t all have star potential, but that isn’t necessarily the point of the draft. You need to be able to fill the back end of your roster with affordable (hopefully) defensively-responsible talent. The Stars didn't have those guys.

 

They lost several key defensive players beginning with the 2007/08 off-season that they simply couldn’t replace. The group of losses ranges from players who began the steep decline which comes at the end of a career, players most fans were happy to see leave, and some that just left. The list includes the following:

 

Defensive Point Shares
First Last 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011
Stu Barnes 1.9 1.2 retired retired retired
Antti Miettinen 1.4 1.3 2.2 1.8 1.5
Jussi Jokinen 2 .9 .8 1.6 1.4
Niklas Hagman 1.9 1.7 .8 1.3 1
Mike Modano 2 1.4 1 .6 .3
Jere Lehtinen 2.4 1.5 1 .5 retired
Jeff Halpern 1.7 1.2 .4 .6 1.4

 *Bold Italicized entries occured with other teams

 

Jeff Halpern’s defensive contribution mirrors that of Brad Richards, but the other contributions weren’t easily replaceable with limited money and limited prospects to choose from. Trading Jokinen for Richards was definitely a worthwhile move, but I’m suggesting that the sum total of these defensive losses up front is a very significant reason for the Stars struggles while fully appreciating that the Stars were never going to be able or willing to pay the prices Hagman or Miettinen commanded on the open market.

 

The good news is that it looks like the Stars recognized this deficiency fairly quickly. They began addressing the issue last off-season with the signing of Adam Burish to an affordable deal to begin shoring up the bottom six. Steve Ott has been a warrior for the Stars in a third line role, but with his elevation to top six status the Stars needed to do some work to the bottom six.

 

Enter Radek Dvorak, Jake Dowell, and Vernon Fiddler. The Stars still didn't have a ton of money to work with this offseason after Richards left, but they spread it around to plug the holes at the bottom of the lineup. They simultaneously improved the penalty killing, improved the forward defense, and potentially helped take some of the hard penalty killing minutes away from the top six guys. Fiddler will be a significant boost to the club's faceoff percentage, and Dowell has everything you'd want from a bottom six guy except experience.

 

The foursome of Dvorak, Dowell, Burish, and Fiddler combined for 4.7 defensive point shares in 2010. When combined with the defensive utility of Ott, Eriksson, Morrow, Petersen, and Benn the Stars should have enough quality defensive talent up front to get back to mid-aughts level defense which would suit Joe Nieuwendyk just fine. I imagine the defensive short comings stuck out to him like a sore thumb considering his background in professional hockey.

 

The Devils team he won The Cup with was (is) notorious for strict accountability and strong defense. The Stars team he won The Cup with had similar attributes. For all of his offensive accomplishments, this is a man who won championships because of the outstanding defensive teams he played on. You can finally see that his mark is firmly on this roster, even if it is still a little hamstrung financially.

 

*Any point share data is easily accesible via www.hockey-reference.com

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Nice post.

Defending Big D team has another great player.

Good times are here and Stars will take what belongs to them. Sooner or Later.

by Henri Muroke on Sep 13, 2011 11:25 AM CDT reply actions  

Hey Josh, this was great! I Would say welcome but... yeah... seen you around here far too often for one of those :)

I think I read your Goligoski one, that was great too.

This point share thing is intriguing, I’m not sure I fully understand it (I’ll read it a few more times to ge the jist).

Is it possible you could put up the scores for our current forwards? And include Richards and Neal? Thinking about it I’d expect theirs to be around the same as Eriksson’s even if their nowhere near as good defensively?

Tonight's forecast... a freeze!!!
James Neal - 45 points. Alex Goligoski - 46 points. Nieuwendyk lost?

by Great British Stars Fan on Sep 13, 2011 11:32 AM CDT reply actions  

The idea behind point shares is that the sum of the production of the players equals the teams point total.

So if a team registers 85 points you would expect 85 point shares divied up among all players who played that season (with an error of 5) including even guys who get into 5 minutes over 2 games.

There isn’t enough space here to post that, but what I’ll do is make a Google Doc and share it.

Oh, and thanks.

"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011

by Josh Lile on Sep 13, 2011 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Kind of

GVT is more like WAR. Both compare what a player did to what a replacement level player would be expected to do.

Point Shares, like Win Shares, doesn’t compare itself to a base level production.

I should stress that none of these numbers are perfect Here is a good write up about the downfalls of Point Shares. The system benefits good teams/goalies, but regardless of the system you use it shows how quickly the Stars defense frittered away.

"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011

by Josh Lile on Sep 13, 2011 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

Woo

Here's to all us girls who love hockey...and the men who play it.

RIP Scratch (7/9/74-9/7/11). A Dallas Star is forever.

by Brad_Richards_Rocks on Sep 13, 2011 11:42 AM CDT reply actions  

I'm sorry for only writing Woo. I was actually going to write more, but it published, so uhm yeah...

Great post!

Also, I miss our defensive-minded Finns. Actually, I miss everyone on that list of defensive point shares.

Here's to all us girls who love hockey...and the men who play it.

RIP Scratch (7/9/74-9/7/11). A Dallas Star is forever.

by Brad_Richards_Rocks on Sep 13, 2011 11:44 AM CDT reply actions  

I don't understand the point shares thing very well, but...

It makes Daley look good.

Contract extension justified!

"I want to have Jamie Benn's babies. And you can quote me on that." - Brandon Worley

by Tsudbury on Sep 13, 2011 12:12 PM CDT reply actions  

It's just trying to assign a percentage of a team's success to each player

The actual numbers on their own are irrelevant.

"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011

by Josh Lile on Sep 13, 2011 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Just to clarify,

the point shares are for total team standings points, right?

Like…Robidas’ 3 defensive point share in 2010 means that his defensive contributions netted the team a win and a half’s worth of standings points? And if you combine that with his offensive point share, you get his overall point share?

The way I understand it is that it’s sort of like +/- but attributed to a player’s value to the team’s standings points.

by Travis Drybread on Sep 13, 2011 1:00 PM CDT reply actions  

Bingo

"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011

by Josh Lile on Sep 13, 2011 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

Kind of

Another way to phrase it is to say that he’s looking at the ratio of net goals to team points.

Expected Points = (league points per goal) × (Marginal Goals For + Marginal Goals Against)

He then works through some math to apply his macro idea on a micro level.

I wouldn’t get bogged down in the minutiea of the stat. Trying to calculate some of the metrics used in sports can lead to nose bleeds.

"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011

by Josh Lile on Sep 13, 2011 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Seems like it is always going to favor the players that are on better teams like +/-.

As in…Matt Duchene and Niklas Backstrom scored roughly the same amount of points, but because Backstrom is on a good team and Duchene is on a poor team, Backstrom will have a better overall point share because his defensive point share won’t be as weighed down.

So on that same token, it would highlight a player on a bad team that has a positive offensive point share and a positive defensive point share.

by Travis Drybread on Sep 13, 2011 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

not that that's a bad thing, it's just the way sports goes.

It’s the same as when Felix Hernandez’s win-loss record sucks despite him being an elite pitcher. If he played for the Yankees, he’d be 25-3, but since he’s a Mariner, he’s like 13-15.

by Travis Drybread on Sep 13, 2011 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thats why context is very important

I think the better example would be ERA instead of record. ERA is dependent to some extent on the defense behind you/park factors, but when you try to compare CJ Wilson’s era to Felix Hernandez’s ERA you’re comparing apples to oranges.

"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011

by Josh Lile on Sep 13, 2011 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

I used record because of the disparity.

Hernandez won the Cy Young last year despite a poor record because the poor record was not his fault. The players around him performed poorly, so it affected his stats.

Same for Duchene. If he’s got 4 defensively irresponsible players out there with him, along with a so-so goalie, his +/- and defensive point share will be negatively affected no matter what he does. To counterbalance that, he’s got to put up goals and assists.

by Travis Drybread on Sep 13, 2011 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Right

But he’s also not going to play with the exact same 4 guys all season, with the same goalie all season, at even strength all season, or against the same competition all season. And when you compare how he did with how his teammates did you can make some genralizations about who did what because of those variables..

So the actual number itself is somewhat irrelevant without the context of what kind of squad surrounds him.

"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011

by Josh Lile on Sep 13, 2011 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Right, which is why comparing players from different teams is an issue

"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011

by Josh Lile on Sep 13, 2011 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

it's easy enough to normalize though.

Run their point shares as a percentage of total points, and then everyone is on equal footing.

"I want to have Jamie Benn's babies. And you can quote me on that." - Brandon Worley

by Tsudbury on Sep 13, 2011 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

If you do it that way, then you can show how your top line contributes to your team

compared to how another top line does for a different time. Or individuals, or whatever.

"I want to have Jamie Benn's babies. And you can quote me on that." - Brandon Worley

by Tsudbury on Sep 13, 2011 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ehh

You have to account for different situations, quality of teammates, quality of competition, and time on ice if you want to try to do that. I think it’s meant to be more of a blunt instrument.

"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011

by Josh Lile on Sep 13, 2011 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

If only there were a metric to level it all out.

Some sort of inflation or deflation statistic to bring all of the teams to the same level.

by Travis Drybread on Sep 13, 2011 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

It isn't that easy, and theres no guarantee that it would tell you anything anyway.

The Scoring Chance Project that is on-going should help the people with the math really crank some neat stuff out as the data improves.

"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011

by Josh Lile on Sep 13, 2011 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

great article Josh

NO This is why i dont come here so much anymore. it has become a destination for certain types which i am not. Love the rangers, not this -- Mark from OC on Arrested Development

Except that Ron Washington says Face has been this team’s MVP.
So did Bobby Valentine, Evan Grant, Jon Heyman --Josey Wales

by shock00 on Sep 13, 2011 1:40 PM CDT reply actions  

Great work, but...

…now I know why I have a degree in English, not Math. :)

Defending Big D's "Official" Western New York Representative

by Mike Russo on Sep 13, 2011 2:19 PM CDT reply actions  

Thank you

I love in depth stats profiles, and methods for objectifying my seat of the pants beliefs;p
Thanks for the article Josh.
One nit pick, we could have easily signed Hagman for the same price as Avery or far cheaper and had a better player/team guy. That was the dumbest move of the Two-Headed Monster era. Not the signing of Avery, but the options they gave up when they signed Avery.

by Waywardstars on Sep 13, 2011 3:49 PM CDT reply actions  

I don't necessarily think signing Hagman or Avery would've been smart

I think thats what you’re saying, but I wanted to reinforce it.. They could’ve spent 4 mil a season much more effectively than on either guy considering how many holes opened up.

I liked the thought process on the Avery signing though. I didn’t actually like the player, but making the top two lines nasty to play against would definitely have been a plus.

"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011

by Josh Lile on Sep 13, 2011 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

i was gunna say they should make you a writer

theres so much on the site now everyday im going crazy. good article

GET OFF NIEUWENDYK'S NUTS

by 8thegreat on Sep 13, 2011 6:20 PM CDT reply actions  

Got a little busy at work and forgot yesterday, but heres the link

Sortable Point Shares

Defending Big D Check it out
Twitter
"You guys are talking about living forever like it’s a real thing, but I bust out a man shoving his head into a vagina, and it’s srs time?"
--iorange555 8/23/2011

by Josh Lile on Sep 14, 2011 1:45 PM CDT reply actions  

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