A continuing discussion of our defensemen

by dmoore44 on Nov 22, 2011 9:36 AM CST

In this post Josh and I had started having the discussion over our three most physical defensemen - how they compare to one another, and who (in our estimation) has been the weakest link thus far. I think the discussion has been good (with Josh using his wealth of stats and me going mostly on intuition and the ever reliable eyeball test) I would like to continue the discussion here - hopefully with more community involvement.

With all that being said, please hit the above linked post and take a look at all that has transpired thus far...

And now to continue:

I expect them to be able to play defense.
Neither Fistric or Pardy can. Grossman has in the past, but he’s taking so many penalties that any (this season) small positive he’s added defensively is completely negated by how many goals he’s given away by needless penalties.

Pardy and Fistric play the easiest defensive minutes of the Stars defensemen.

With Goligoski out there are three defensemen that Gulutzan has been starting in the offensive zone the most. Adam Pardy, Mark Fistric, and Grossman. He doesn’t appear to trust them either.

As for Fistric, he’s only ever had one good season, and that is the outlier in his career. He’s never played tough competition, and he’s never been counted on to play defensive zone minutes consistently by, now, three coaching staffs. He isn’t very good.

The biggest issue for me is this: Fistric can at least play passable defense; Pardy looks to be a member of the Woywitka school of defense.

This is a user-created FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of SB Nation or Defending Big D. FanPost opinions are valued expressions of opinion by passionate and knowledgeable hockey and Dallas Stars fans.

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It depends on your definition of passable.

Can he play some bottom pairing minutes? Sure, but he isn’t desirable. The Stars obviously feel that he hasn’t been a primary defensive option despite the poor defensive team they’ve run out there for three years with the way they’ve used him his entire career: low leverage situations in favorable zone starts. He can hit, but what else?

He seems, to me, to be the prototypical “you accept him being on the roster if you have to, but when he starts making money you move on” type of guy. If he’s the 7th defenseman making near league minimum it isn’t as much of an issue.

I definitely don’t question (and if I gave the impression that I did, sorry) that Adam Pardy is worse. I don’t really understand why he’s here other than the salary floor issues.

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by Josh Lile on Nov 22, 2011 11:19 AM CST reply actions

Our D is much better then in years past.

Although we can still improve in many areas. I’m not a stats wizard or anything but I’ll give my take on the D men.

Pardy- He is not living up to the contract he was given, although I think Joe signed him to that contract w/ the thought that he will take the next step. I kept hearing that he was a solid 2 way guy, but I just don’t see it. I don’t think he has registered a single point and his D zone coverage is terrible at times. He is also -7.

Fistric- He is a great hitter but not great at much else. He is a very slow skater and makes questionable decisions at times. If the Stars want to become a contender which of course they do, he would be best used as a 7th defenseman or sent to the AHL. He has had a few years to get better and doesn’t really look at that improved.

Grossman- I honestly don’t know what to think here. At least his +/- is positive, and we know he’s never gonna put up big offensive numbers. The penalties are an issue and he does have defensive lapses from time to time. I used to think he was a solid shut down d man you could play against the other team’s top line but I’m not so sure now.

by T-rom on Nov 22, 2011 11:46 AM CST reply actions

we are well stocked

In third pair defensemen.

by harry wagstaff on Nov 22, 2011 12:15 PM CST reply actions

How about Larsen last night?

Pretty physical, fast, great first pass, soft hands, and that one offensive break away. I forgot to mention how well he played on the boards all night too, whenever he went in there he was physical and came away with the puck more times than not.

by sundancekid on Nov 22, 2011 4:13 PM CST reply actions

I agree.

Larsen should be permanent fixture on defense…even when Goli comes back. That will give us two good puck moving defensemen on two different pairings. I was pleasantly surprised at how Larsen took the body at the blue line and on the boards a couple of times in the Edmonton game. Fistric and Grossman are basically the same player. Slow, physical players who you can’t depend on for any offense.

by Starzfanatic on Nov 23, 2011 9:09 AM CST up reply actions

What about Robi?

Robi is a pretty solid “first pass” kind of guy – definitely not of the same overall caliber as Goose or the Great Dane, but solid none-the-less.

I agree with you though – between last season and this one, Larsen has shown that he’s ready to play on the big stage. Send Pardy down to the T-Stars and let Grossman and Fistric fight over a roster spot.

Carpe diem!

by dmoore44 on Nov 23, 2011 9:18 AM CST up reply actions

Robidas has historically been better defensively than Goligoski, but definitely isn't the same offensive caliber.

You can’t remove Pardy from the roster for a few reasons. For one, you signed him for two years. He isn’t going to be ditched 20 games into his first season. Ignoring that, ditching Pardy would, I assume, put them under the salary floor.

Grossman isn’t coming out of the lineup either. Despite being up and down at even strength he’s been their best penalty killing defender, and significantly better overall than Fistric. He shouldn’t have to fight for a roster spot.

by Josh Lile on Nov 23, 2011 9:50 AM CST up reply actions

Supposing....

You can’t remove Pardy from the roster for a few reasons. For one, you signed him for two years. He isn’t going to be ditched 20 games into his first season. Ignoring that, ditching Pardy would, I assume, put them under the salary floor.

If salary cap concerns and contract length weren’t an issue, which d-man would you choose to demote?

Also, as an aside, you wouldn’t happen to have any super-comprehensive stats on Woywitka would you? I’d be curious to see how Fistric, Pardy, and Woywitka stack up against one another.

Carpe diem!

by dmoore44 on Nov 23, 2011 1:26 PM CST up reply actions

Pardy, but which would I rather have isn't the right question.

Would I want either in a prominent role on a team with Cup aspirations? No.

Comparing the three on a straight numbers vs numbers basis is difficult since Pardy was on the Flames. But, the three of them have pretty similar profiles. Coaches keep them away from their own net, and keep them on the ice against weaker competition when they can. The difference being that Pardy usually has a decent enough Relative Corsi to justify being on the roster. So far this year Fistric has been what you’d want from Pardy, and Pardy has been what you would expect from Fistric.

by Josh Lile on Nov 23, 2011 2:10 PM CST up reply actions

Fistric...

really doesn’t look as bad out there as you all make it sound.
Yeah, he didn’t have a fantastic start to the season. But he has played out of his mind the past few games.

@rossssss
http://www.last.fm/user/ROSSSSSS

by Ross Phillips on Nov 24, 2011 10:32 PM CST reply actions

You can't ignore who he's playing against and where he starts his shits.

What is Fistric? You can’t call him a defensive defenseman if he isn’t playing defensive minutes. He doesn’t have any offensive game to speak of either. He’s a tweener that you accept on the roster until you’re able to find better.

by Josh Lile on Nov 25, 2011 11:33 AM CST up reply actions

more focus on what happens during the games and less focus on judging players purely off of the stat sheets.

It doesn’t matter what line he is going up against, defense is defense. 1st pairing or 3rd pairing, the goal is the same… don’t get scored on.

Just my opinion that Fistric has been much better than people are giving him credit for this season.
He hasn’t been chasing as much as he used to, he has an insane amount of hits (75 in 16 games)
he’s only a -4 on the season. Which for a 3rd pairing d-man isn’t really bad at all. Considering the guys he’s out there with aren’t exactly helping in the scoring column.

I think Fistric has struggled a lot less than Grossman this season.

@rossssss
http://www.last.fm/user/ROSSSSSS

by Ross Phillips on Nov 26, 2011 5:58 PM CST up reply actions

more focus on what happens during the games and less focus on judging players purely off of the stat sheets.

You understand that what happens on “stat sheets” is generated by what happens on the ice right?

It doesn’t matter what line he is going up against, defense is defense. 1st pairing or 3rd pairing, the goal is the same… don’t get scored on.

Wrong.

Assume the Stars shutout the Penguins. If Player A goes against Sidney Crosby for every shift in a given game, and Player B goes against the Penguins 4th line for every shift in a given game you’re telling me Player B was as valuable as Player A defensively? That’s simply not true.

by Josh Lile on Nov 27, 2011 12:23 PM CST up reply actions

And, that's also ridiculous.

I’ve watched every second of every game. If you disagree with my opinion of Mark Fistric thats fine….but the Stars coaching staff doesn’t appear to disagree by their usage of Fistric.

by Josh Lile on Nov 27, 2011 12:24 PM CST up reply actions

i hope he starts his shits sitting on the toilet.

by harry wagstaff on Nov 26, 2011 6:37 PM CST up reply actions

I wish this were reddit.

If it were I would upvote this

by sundancekid on Nov 26, 2011 10:42 PM CST up reply actions

Grossman, souray and fistric.

All three are free agents after this year. Fistric is restricted. Do you resign grossman? I would like to offer Souray a 2 year 2 million a year extension and pray he takes it.
Robidas will need to slide down into a third pairing roll soon. I dont think any of our prospects will be ready for a top 4 roll anytime soon other than Larsen and he isnt a sure thing.

by harry wagstaff on Nov 25, 2011 10:40 AM CST reply actions

Will

take more than two million to retain Souray if he puts up numbers all season. A lot more. I’d pay him a fair amount for no more than two years. They’ll be able to afford it if they want him. Fistric I wouldn’t mind for another year depending on how things look with the D corps at the end of the season if he’s going to be a 6-7 again. Grossman, not sure yet.

by StarzenheimerSchmidt on Nov 25, 2011 2:08 PM CST up reply actions

I think Souray may take a discount.

With how things went down in Edmonton he might take less to stay in a situation where he is comfortable. maybe more than 2 million will be needed but he seems happy to be here.

by harry wagstaff on Nov 26, 2011 8:23 AM CST up reply actions

Agree,

if he really likes it here and feels some loyalty for the Stars taking a chance on him, may take a discount. But this is also his last chance to “get paid” so it won’t be too much of a discount. He hasn’t been producing offensively lately though either so we’ll see how things shake out with his value.

by StarzenheimerSchmidt on Nov 28, 2011 10:53 AM CST up reply actions

Trade Robidas

I think he is a decent defensive player but not meriting the"A". He is too inconsistent with his play and he takes alot of boneheaded penalties. Put Souray in his place and let him lead the way with this young D core.
Gossman and Fistric will be fine give them time. Bring up Dillon. And someone please tell me why Goddard is not with the big club! When will we see him?

by deerslayertx on Nov 28, 2011 9:14 AM CST reply actions