Reasons For Blueline Optimism
It's the slow doldrums of August, and there's little news to be found regarding our Dallas Stars. Trust me, I know. I just spent fifteen minutes searching Google news for anything on the Nicklas Grossman contract situation. Nada. Nothing. It's not too surprising, since this regime tends to keep everything contract-wise close to the vest. But I guess I just want some security knowledge that Grossman will be back after looking at stats this morning.
After spending a couple hours this morning going over our defensive stats from last season, I'm convinced things aren't as bleak as they seem for our blueline. I specifically focused on three players: Nicklas Grossman, Mark Fistric, and Trevor Daley. The idea was to look at things differently than usual: instead of looking at the defense as a unit, I decided to look at the progression of the individual players themselves. I did this because that is how the Stars themselves look at it. They trust in the growth of the young players, as trying as that may be for us fans. But really, if you think about it, it might just be worth the wait.
Nicklas Grossman
Grossman is hard to quantify just based on stats from last season, mainly because he was paired with Stephane Robidas on the top line. The top pair on any team will go up against the opponent's best players, which will result in lower-than-average numbers. But I don't think numbers tell the story of Grossman as well as our own eyes do. Grossman uses his size well: He's blocked 100 shots and shelled out more than 150 hits in both of the past two seasons. For two years now, Grossman has handled more than 17 minutes of ice time per game, and done it fairly well. Well enough that Mark Crawford trusted him with top pair minutes most of the season. I think that says a lot about Grossman. All season long, Fistric was performing admirably, and could have supplanted Grossman on the top line if Grossman's play dropped a bit. But it never did, and the top pair stuck together for most of the season.
Think about that. This is a 25 year old kid who the Stars clearly believe is coming into his own as a defenseman. It's hard to argue with them. His Corsi number relative to Quality of Competition was the highest on the team. His plus/minus rose four points, and has risen over the past two years. Clearly Grossman's impact on the ice is growing right before our eyes, and is growing positively at that. And at the age of 25, the Stars are about to see him in his prime. Will he be a number-one defensemen? It's hard to tell at this point, but probably not. But there's no question that if the pattern continues, Grossman's on-ice influence will be very noticeable next season.
After the jump, a look at Mark Fistric and Trevor Daley's numbers....
Mark Fistric
A few days ago in the Raising The Cup GDT, a few of us were remembering the good 'ole days with Derian Hatcher defending the front of the net like a cave troll in Lord of The Rings. He had that "Certified Badass" thing about him, something our current blueline currently lacks. But one name kept coming up in that discussion: Mark Fistric. We all agreed that Fistric was the closest thing we have to a badass, intimidating presence on the blueline. And you know what? We might've been right.
To me, Fistric is a huge bright spot for the Stars going into next season. Just looking at the BehindTheNet numbers, it's hard to argue.
|
CORSI
|
SHOTS ON-ICE
|
||||||||||||||
| NAME | NUM | GP | TOI/60 | RATING | QUALCOMP | QUALTEAM | CORSI ON | CORSI OFF | DIFF | GFON/60 | GAON/60 | DIFF | SFON/60 | SAON/60 | DIFF |
| Mark Fistric | 28 | 67 | 13.91 | 2.64 | -0.085 | -0.082 | 1.42 | -4.61 | -3.19 | 2.7 | 1.03 | 1.67 | 26.9 | ||
There's a couple things to look at there. First off, his BTN rating was the highest on the team. Secondly that Corsi difference is a bit surprising. (For an explanation of Corsi numbers, check this out). Fistric isn't known for being much of an offensive player, yet the difference between the number of shots taken when he's off the ice compared to on is the highest on the team among defensemen. So that tells me that Fistric's plus/minus isn't just a fluke, and that Fistric does in fact have a positive influence offensively. Lastly take a look at that goals against/on the ice stat. It's the lowest by far on the team.
So Fistric showed last season that he is a stabilizing force on the blueline while not slowing down the offense one bit. And all of this progress occurred within one season. Remember that Fistric had what Matt Niskanen did not: a full season in the minors to hone his skills. It seems to have paid off. Whereas Fistric was once overly-physical and shaky in his own end, he has become a more well-rounded player who handles himself more responsibly. Now, that doesn't mean that Fistric doesn't have an edge. He still does, perhaps the meanest edge of the current blueline. The key will be for Fistric to become even more intimidating while continuing to man his zone responsibly and consistently. We should have no doubt he can do that after seeing how much he can improve in just one season. The Stars believe Fistric can be a top-pair defenseman, and we fans should expect no less in the future.
Trevor Daley
Going into last season, Daley was expected to make huge offensive improvements in Mark Crawford's system. Crawford prefers to have his defensemen lead the rush and jump-start things in the offensive zone, which theoretically would lead to better offensive numbers from the defense. We all had seen Trevor Daley play for years, and all recognized his offensive potential. So naturally Daley should have blossomed in Crawford's system. And as we all remember quite well, he didn't.
But that doesn't mean last season was a complete waste. In fact, there are a few numbers that suggest that Daley is still capable of putting up great offensive numbers. The first thing I want to point out is his play on the road versus his play at home. Just from mere observation alone, it seemed to me that Daley excelled at the AAC all season. He was much more noticeable, more memorable than he was on the road, where he was invisible. The plus/minus splits back this up. At home, Daley boasts a +14, and on the road, Daley posted a -11. Now, that's not to say he didn't score on the road, because he actually had more points on the road than at home. So what this tells me is that, like the rest of the team, Daley's defense only suffered on the road. Simple consistency will fix that.
Okay, now to offense. First thing I looked at was power play time and production. In the '08-'09 season, Daley had 102:24 PP/TOI, and 1:21 PP/TOI per game. This season, Daley had 129:05 PP/TOI, and 1:40 PP/TOI per game. So with an increase in extra-man minutes, should come an increase in point production, right? Right. And he did, upping his grand total of one point in '08-'09 to 2 goals and 3 assists this season.
As for the rest of his performance? Well, I admit that the numbers aren't good. Especially if you look at his Corsi numbers. But the thing I keep pointing to is the last 18 games of the season, when Daley went 3-7-10. Could it just be a hot streak? Yeah, maybe. But from just watching his poise, the way he carried himself on the ice, it seemed more like Daley was finally taking advantage of Crawford's system. That's why I choose to believe that Daley will be much improved this season.
So in conclusion: Yes, the stats for the unit as a whole are terrible. But judging by the progression from these three players in specific areas, it's safe to guess that the entire blueline could be markedly improved next season. Part of dealing with young players is patience, and with that comes frustration. It's hard to sit by and wait for an entire defensive unit to grow up when you're so used to winning consistently. But like I said yesterday, it's not like this team is currently rebuilding its blueline. That's already happened. We've been in a holding pattern for two years...and from what some of the stats can tell us, the unit might finally be close to reaching potential. And who knows? Maybe a full offseason and another training camp working with the system will lead to better results next season.
So I preach patience, friends. There is hope yet for our young blueliners. Keep an eye on these three next season.
22 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Well
Well, the real problem with the D corp is that Robidas is your top D-man. Now, I like Robidas, he is a good D-man, he just ins’t a #1 and is more likely a #3 d-man and that is where the problem is. Also, Nisky sucks and your D corp rounds out with Woywitka and Skrastins.
I really like Fistric and Grossman and think they will be on that blue line for the next six years providing great D and that Daley is a league average D man. The problem with the D corp is that you don’t have the shut down ability that the top teams have and I don’t see the D, as constituted, having that ability. If they could just get 1 stud D guy in here (or have Grossman, Fistric and/or hopefully Larsen turn into one) then we have something cooking. Until that time whomever is in net needs to be on their toes because the D is going to be like a sieve and it isn’t going to be pretty.
I can't believe Daley was +14 at home
when all I can remember is sitting in my seat at the AAC shooting daggers at him all the way down there ;)
im so greatfull for DBD without this site i may have gotten into baseball due to boredom and who knows waht other crap that leads to.
sorta off subject of the article and definatly wont happen, but wouldnt it be so freakin awsome if we could get chara next year? i mean i know im just having a wet dream but that would fix are problem juuuust fine. (:
but onto the article grossman and fistric just keep getting better and better if they keep improving at the rate they are then with robes and a #1 defender we could have a strong d core
daley has flashes of amazing speed and offensive skill but sadly end up goin wide of the net or hitting someone in front
ha had a few snipes that were beautiful which shows he can finish but will he ever do it consistently? only time will tell
GET OFF NIEUWENDYK'S NUTS
Hooray for optimism!
It’s good to see someone else seeing the positives the team has. If we keep harping on how much we sucked last year (and I know we did) that’ll carry over into this year and may set the tone wrong. But, if we focus on the positives, maybe it won’t turn out quite as bad as you may think it will.
But I’m an eternal optimist…so it may just be me in that mindset. ;)
can people please re-check robidas's stats
and stop saying those aren’t number 1 numbers. because they are. league status: 23rd in pts, 17th in goals. and half way through the season he was leading in goals and right there in the top 10 in points. the problem with him last year is he got worn down from being the number 1 guy and because no other defensemen was producing. he starting pushing the issue with the puck more and wasn’t as characteristically sound in his own end. he was overused early and relied on to stop the opponent’s best every night; i know that’s what a number 1 does, but when your #2 is having his first season in that spot, things will be tough.
start valuing robidas for what he does. he blocks shots and scores on the powerplay and rarely, rarely screws up. and he does those things very very well.
look he’s not a great skater. he breaks his nose every season and gets hit far too often. but he plays his heart out every single game and i rather have a point producing, hard-working defensemen,responsible in his own than any of the following number 1s/2s who had more points this year: alex edler, curtis foster, bryan mccabe, marek zidlicky, christian erhoff, lubomir visnovsky, joni pitkanen, tomas kaberle, mark streit, sergei gonchar, and chris ponger. only detroit and vancouver had 2 guys each in the top 23, meaning other teams have a worse “#1”.
look, the only guys i would want over robidas are the following, and if that doesn’t make him a number one, than i don’t what else will: mike green, duncan keith, drew doughty, dan boyle (though i absolutely hate him), tobias enstrom, nicklas lidstrom, tyler myers, zdeno chara (reluctantly), shea weber, brain rafalski, erik johnson, jack johnson, ryan suter, dion phaneuf, brent seabrook, and perhaps i could talk myself into a few others but i can’t think of anymore. anyone have a different list? that was a bout a dozen guys. does that not make robidas a number 1?
argue against, i understand the case, because he’s not big, fast, and wasn’t consistent this year. but his supporting cast was unstable and completely nonexistent for the vast majority of the year. big year for robidas coming.
oh, and yay to grossman, fistric, nah to niskanen, skrastins (i never get that one right) and partial to daley (though i tell myself every year he’ll be good, but he only becomes good the final month and a half of every season; check the 2 months of the last 2 seasons, it’s almost funny).
i stand corrected
on daley’s stats from 08-09. but at least this past year he had 10 pts (of 22) in the final 2 months, including 3 pts in the 5 april games, and 3 goals in march, tied for his most in a month during his career.
hmm
so you call him a number one. But then state that he wore down because he played number one minutes? Look (haha) if you can’t play number one minutes without wearing down you are not a number one guy. It’s pretty simple. He played like a number one for about half a year, then dropped off a cliff offensively and played more like a 2nd pairing dman. Since 25 points is more traditionally what he scores, it looks like the amazing early scoring pace was more of a fluke than anything.
You also dont judge whos a number one simply by points. Noones going to question Robidas’ heart, but his defensive positioning is not exactly top notch. He tends to wander a bit looking for hits and thus loses position way more frequently than a number 1 dman should.
i'm saying he's human
and has no help. whatsoever. all the number one guys i said i would rather have, all have help. hell, even keith’s number 2 made my list (seabrook), primarily because of keith’s abilities. but all the number 2s are significantly better than grossman, albeit i think he will continue to develop into a more complete defensemen.
he should wander as the number 1 defensemen and grossman should cover for him. look at the top guys i said (keith, green, doughty, boyle, weber, etc.); they all have freedom to pursue the corners and face-off circles more aggressively, and rightfully should. that’s how robidas is more effective, when his feet are already moving. he has a slow start to his stride and needs to be hovering on top of the best players that he should be defending, not staying at home and waiting for them to come at him. that’s what number 1s do and that’s how robidas defends at his best. he’s superb at using his frame and making it bigger than it is and making people pay in the process.
it wasn’t the number one minutes that wore him down, it was the style of minutes. he’ll only produce more this year because he’ll be better conditioned to rush the puck with consistency and frequency that he didn’t have to do under tippett. now that he really knows what to expect after experiencing the season, he’ll be more prepared for the grind.
number ones dont need guys to cover for them.
those guys you mentioned are great defensively (other than green) because they know how to balance roaming with staying in position. Sure some of them have great number 2s (many of which are much better than robidas as well) and those guys do help, but the elite number 2s who are 1s in disquise are pretty few and far between.
I guess it comes down to what actually makes a number 1 dman in your eyes. Technically I guess there are 30 number 1 dmen. While realistically I’d say there are about 15 guys I consider true number ones. Robidas is definitely not among them. Even taking the technical definition of a number one dman (ie 30 of them) Robidas ranks towards the bottom. You listed about a dozen guys who youd want ahead of Robidas, thats fine, but there are defnitely more than a dozen guys who are better than Robidas. In fact IMO that number is much much closer to 60 than it is 12.
Ballard, Boyle, Bouwmeester, Boyle, Campbell, Chara, Doughty,Edler, Ehrhoff, Enstrom, Green, Gonchar, Hamhuis, Hjalmarsson, Johnson E, Johnson J, Kaberle, Keith, Letang, Lidstrom, Markov, Martin, Michalek, Murray, Myers, Orpik, Phaneuf, Phillips, Pitkanen, Pronger, Quincey, Rafalksi, Regehr, Seabrook, Seidenberg, Staal, Stralman, Streit, Suter, Timmonen,Visnovsky, Vlasic, Volchenkov, Weber, Yandle, and Zidlicky. Ok so thats 46 that I feel are without a doubt better than overall than Robidas. There are also quite a few young dmen I expect to make it into this category soon.
you're lying about:
ballard (slow skater, not as good offensively), campbell (and you robidas is bad in his own end? just cause the guy does one spin-o-rama a bobby orr a season doesn’t make him good), edler (really?!?… the guy plays on 2nd and 3rd D-pairs and powerplay on a deep offensive team), ehroff (terrible in his own in, way too many dumb turnovers, etc.), gonchar (slow, poor coverage, suspect to injury, doesn’t sacrifice, etc.), hamhuis (love the guy, but not as offensive gifted but might show more in vancouver this year), hjalmarsson (awful skater and possibly the biggest bender in the league, falls over himself, more susceptible to hits than robidas, ridiculously overvalued b/c he has other great D-men around him, just like matt caryl in philly and niskanen when playing with zubov!!!), kaberle (any stars fans wanna trade robidas for kaberle…yeah didn’t think so), markov (weak and fragile in both ends, terrible at holding the point under pressure, vastly overrated), martin (product of a great system and goaltending, doesn’t have the offensive side robidas has), michalek (not even dignifying a response to that), murray (because i didn’t know who you were talking about, then realized it was douglas murray, than i laughed because he’s dirty, a terrible skater and takes terrible penalties, and is well subpar in terms of puck movement, etc.), orpik (great player and number 2, but doesn’t produce offensively, although i could go either way on this), phillips (6.5 mil a year for…?), pitkanen (because i’m a former whalers fan and hate the hurricanes more than any other team; he’s pretty damn good though), pronger (because he’s the cheapest player on the ice and takes a penalty ever time he’s on the ice; he’s the shaq of the nhl)… it’s getting late now, so i’m gonna conclude with a brief: seidenberg, stall, stralman, striet, timmonen, visnovsky and VLASIC (!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?).
so i’m taking min. 20 off your total; top 25 d-men, that’s a number 1 (at worst 2). but to say he’s a 3 is ridiculous.
oops I didnt mean to include Murray.
But what i expected to happen with my list happened. You think Robidas is great so you belittle some very good dmen. You use Cap hits and individiual skills of certain players to knock them. The list isnt about whos the best for the money, or who are the best skaters, its who are the most effective dmen overall.
exactly
and my “belittings” or whatever were direct comparisons to what robidas brings. the comparisons were used in direct opposition to provide basis why the players you listed are not as good as robidas.
but let’s take your argument as i’m only picking certain players/skills and not looking at the big picture… isn’t that what you were doing in the first place with robidas. the only thing you said that disqualified him as a number 1 is that he gets out of position, so in turn, i went through your list (until i got tired) and pointed out flaws of everyone of your guys that you claimed was better in direct opposition to your claims, i.e. stating what you said was false. any list of “great defensemen” that includes wade redden and marc edward vlasic is absolutely absurd, just as trying to justify that mark streit is a defensemen and not just a forward who doesn’t know where to line up properly or that gonchar/zidlicky/hjalmarsson/etc. doesn’t shy away from a shot or hit and cough up the puck at least once a game, all things robidas doesn’t do by the way.
go watch this review video. look at the one defensemen making the plays for us, and tell me those aren’t number one plays. just cause the guy wears a cage, doesn’t make him some dumpy 3rd liner barely staying in the nhl. http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?catid=35&id=60158
Robidas as a #3
I think you are taking that someone saying Robidas as a #3 D-man is a slight or something. It isn’t, he’s a really good D-man and I’m glad he plays for the Stars. It is just that he is over-matched because they are playing him as a #1 when he’s closer to a #3. That isn’t an indictment of Robidas as much as it is an indictment of the Stars D corp as a whole and the FO in constructing a crappy D corp. Robidas is a good player – the Stars are just asking him to do too much.
Should we also be patient with
Niskanen? I can’t help but think of how his game would improve if he played with a chip on his shoulder. Like I said last year, somebody kick his cat and let’s get this thing turned around already. (BTW, I own two cats and I don’t condone cruelty to animals – it was a figure of speech).
I think the hope is
that he just had a sophomore slump. A really bad sophopmore slump. The most horrific one known to all of mankind. But we already have so many other things that we’re putting our hope in, Stars fans have to be able to berate something — and Nisky and Brunny are getting the bulk of it.
I’m not saying they don’t deserve it, but if we had made the playoffs, or one of a dozen other things had gone right, we probably would have just shrugged it off and said “do better next year.”
errr
Junior year? His sophomore year started out horribly but ended on a good note. This last year was the only one where he stunk all year. I am not ready to give up the guy. Id like to see the stars sign him to a 2 year deal and make a decision on him one way or another after that year.

by 














